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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

[00:00:10] I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

[00:00:22]

[00:00:22] Hello and welcome again to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am your host, Elizabeth, and today I am excited to be joined by Robin, Roni, and Lisa. And today we have Robin and Lisa, they are advocates. They work at a children's justice center and we have Roni, who is a forensic interviewer who also works at a children's justice center.

[00:00:51] Last week we talked to Evonne and Amanda, so we learned a little bit about what children's justice centers are and what their particular roles are. And so today I just wanna dive straight in and have you each talk a little bit about your role that you play in children's justice centers.

[00:01:08] Lisa, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off, that would be great.

[00:01:12] Lisa: Sure. So I'm typically the first person that they see when they walk in. I introduce myself and get their names and figure out who's who, and help them through the paperwork process. And answer any questions that they have as far as what the process is at our actual facility.

[00:01:34] And, for them, once a child goes to to talk with Roni, I stay with the family and interact with them and answer any questions they might have. Give them any referrals. I do a family needs assessment to see what information they're actually interested in to see what might benefit them.

[00:01:52] Elizabeth: Okay, great. And what about you, Robin? Do you have anything to add to that about being an advocate?

[00:01:59] Robin: As far as our role being there, everybody is there for a purpose. So the interviewer is there to find out what happened. The forensic examiner is there to collect any evidence or photographs the police are in, looking at the crime.

[00:02:15] The prosecutor's office are looking at what charges would be applicable. Nobody is there for the victim as far as what they're going through, how to try to put the pieces of their life back together, especially the parents. They're lost, or the caregiver, sometimes the parents are the offenders and the kids have been ripped out of their home and they're with somebody else and a victim advocate, our program is actually provides victim advocacy across the entire eastern central Ohio service area for our agency. So we help them figure out what their needs are, help them navigate through what's going on in the criminal justice system. So they feel like somebody's hearing them, somebody is letting them know what their rights are because Ohio has a victim's rights law, Marcy's Law, that gives victims specific rights.

[00:03:04] And there are resources like victim notification systems where they can register to find out if their offender's custody status is gonna be changing. If they're in prison, they can get compensation for certain types of out of pocket expenses depending on their victimization. So a victim advocate, Lisa does an assessment with them and we let them know, okay, these are your rights.

[00:03:25] These are some resources that might help you put those pieces back together. But what other needs, what other problems are there that we might be able to help you find? So I tell people victim advocates are like the concierge to the victimization experience. We don't have a formal role to play in any piece of it, but we know where to go to connect people or what phone calls we need to make to find answers for them.

[00:03:52] So our goal, our role, is just to be a resource for the victim or the victim's caregiver to make sure that they feel like somebody is there with them while everybody else does their specific piece.

[00:04:06] Elizabeth: Which I think is just such a important role to have. Thinking about reporting a crime that's happened to you is already scary and daunting enough.

[00:04:16] And I know I'm personally asked honestly a lot, all the time, "oh what's the process?" And I am usually at a loss for words of what to say. I usually say, you know who you should go to, you should check out the local CJC. You, they would have better answers than me. And because it is a difficult process and it's not, everyone's process is the same.

[00:04:42] And so having someone who can help you along the way and kind of hold your hand and walk you through it is so important. And then I, you brought up just a, I think such an important point about victims have rights, and I don't think many victims know that. Could you, would you mind sharing with me what some of those rights are?

[00:05:05] Robin: In Ohio, under Marcy's Law victims have the right to be notified about what's going on in their investigation. A big one is they have the right to be included done on any decisions as far as plea deals. So in order to be compliant with the law, the prosecutor's office can't just offer a lesser charge and call it a day. The victim has to be in the loop on that. Victims have the right to make impact statements, so even if they agree to a plea deal, when there comes a sentencing day, the victim has the right to stand up in court and address that person. They can do it in writing or they can do it face to face. They have the right to be treated with respect.

[00:05:41] At every stage, they have the right to have an advocate, so we are allowed to go with them. The only place we're not actually allowed to go with them is into a grand jury hearing room. That the victim has to be in there by herself with the prosecutor and the grand jury members because it's a closed proceeding.

[00:05:58] But I've sat in on many interviews where I'm just sitting there holding a victim's hand while they're talking to the detective. I'm not saying anything. I don't have an official role, but they are legally allowed to have me in the room with them just as a support person. They have the right to compensation if they were a victim of a violent crime, like a sexual assault, they have the right to any out of pocket expenses. So insurance copay, mileage, lost work. If they had to lose time from work so they had less in their paycheck, they can get that reimbursed through the victims of crime compensation program

[00:06:33] Elizabeth: And now,

[00:06:33] Robin: So there's a lot of, they may not know about.

[00:06:35] Elizabeth: That, that is a lot of good information and that is specific to Ohio.

[00:06:40] Robin: Right.

[00:06:41] Elizabeth: And there's currently no federal bill of rights for victims.

[00:06:45] Robin: Exactly. There have been many attempts to get a victim's rights amendment to the US Constitution, but it has not gotten enough support to pass at this point. So a lot of states have victims' rights laws on the books. So what each state would have different sets of rights. They're pretty comparable.

[00:07:03] Elizabeth: That is such good information to have. I feel like it should be, there should just be like a Federal amendments for victims. There just should be that. But I guess, whenever anyone asks me, " Oh, how was your court experience? What is it like?"

[00:07:18] I've always told them, cuz someone said to me, we don't have a justice system for victims. We have a legal system for victims. And that's always stood out in my head because, no matter what the outcome of the trial or your legal experience, if you will, whatever's been taken from you will never be given back.

[00:07:37] Justice has never really served in that sense. And you know better than I do how often cases are dismissed or not enough evidence, or just how easily it is to have victims shut down.

[00:07:51] Robin: Definitely.

[00:07:52] Elizabeth: Roni, could you talk a little bit about what you do?

[00:07:55] Roni: Sure. My role as a forensic interviewer here at Heroes Landing is to get the story from the child. After they come in and the family meets with either Lisa or Robin, I'll come out and I will introduce myself to the child and then I'll bring them back, just one on one. I'll bring 'em back to the interview room. And the interview room here is very comforting. We've got some very comforting and soothing furniture back in here, and I bring 'em back in.

[00:08:34] I sit 'em down and I introduce myself to them and I tell 'em what my role is. And then I talk to them about, that they're going to see a nurse after the interview and that nurse is Amanda, that she'll check it for their body after the interview. And then we go over the rule of the interview so that they understand what the rules are, just to put perimeters for the interview. And then we get into talking about who the child is. And I tell them that before we start with talking about why we're there, I want to get to know them so I can help build a rapport with them.

[00:09:17] Cuz it's important to try to build a rapport with the child because I'm a stranger to them. They don't know me and I'm asking them to tell a very sensitive topic about what's happening to their bodies or what they may have seen or what they may have experienced. So I'm trying to build that rapport with them.

[00:09:40] And then after that then I'll talk with them about, why they may have come to Heroes Landing to talk to me. And then they'll talk to me about what they may have experienced. Some children may disclose, some may not. If they choose not to disclose, we don't force them to. If they do choose to disclose I stay in the room until the child finishes with their disclosure.

[00:10:05] Sometimes we play with play dough during that disclosure. Sometimes we'll get out a puzzle. It just, whatever makes the child feel comfortable. And then once we're done then we end up walking down towards the, down the hallway. I take them to Amanda, who is our SANE nurse. Introduce 'em to Amanda.

[00:10:27] And then, I leave them with Amanda and then I come back to the interview room, clean up a little bit, and then I will go out and meet with the family members or the caregivers and talk a little bit with them. And give a little bit of information about what the child had reported to give the family members just an update so they are prepared for when the child comes out meeting with the SANE nurse.

[00:10:57] Elizabeth: Do you feel like it's been helpful that the child doesn't know you, do you feel like as a whole, they feel more comfortable with you and disclosing with you because they don't know you?

[00:11:08] Roni: I think it's better that way. When children, if they knew me, they would feel less inclined to, to disclose the details of abuse because then they would feel as if they would be in judged.

[00:11:24] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:24] Roni: Um, that's why I don't allow anybody else in the room with me. Like I don't allow parents or siblings or friends or anything like that because then a child doesn't feel like, they don't feel like they're being judged or they don't feel like they're going to be upsetting anybody else.

[00:11:46] I make it clear that this is a safe space. You can tell me anything you wanna tell me and I'm not judging you. Whatever you have to tell me, this is safe. You can tell me whatever you want. I'm not gonna judge whatever you say. I've. Interviewed children so many times before, and whatever you've told me, I've probably heard it before.

[00:12:09] So they are safe to tell me and I, a lot of times that helps with children feeling better. I get children telling me that people don't believe what they say, and I tell 'em that I believe them. I'm here, I'm listening, I believe you. So they get where they have family members that don't believe them.

[00:12:30] So me being a stranger to them and just wanting to listen to them, I think that helps them.

[00:12:37] Elizabeth: Lisa, and Robin. Yeah. I have the same question for you in your roles do you feel like it's a help or to be a stranger to the survivor, to the family?

[00:12:49] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:12:53] Robin: They're a little less op, they're a little less inclined to hide what their needs might be. They still do because of pride to a certain extent, but I think if they knew me in person, they would be more embarrassed about the situation and what happened, and they would feel like they'd have to try to justify it and minimize it.

[00:13:16] Whereas I'm, I, lisa is usually the one there, I'm there if she can't be. So we kind of tag team that. But one of the things that we let them know is that we're simply there as a resource for them. So I think it helps that they don't know us, but they know that our entire job revolves around providing what assistance they need us to provide.

[00:13:37] Elizabeth: And what do you, and this, and anyone can answer this question, but what do you feel like we are doing good in this process? Like, where are the areas that we are really seeing a lot of progress being made and we're doing a, we're doing a good job.

[00:13:52] Roni: We're hearing the child's voice. we are hearing, we're speaking up and this is the child's story and we are hearing the child's voice and we're being the voice for the child here.

[00:14:06] Robin: And the CJC process in particular, we actually just had a amazing victory in how CJC models run here in Muskingham County. There was a case involving a young boy who had been abused and they had done a recorded interview at the Child Advocacy, Child Justice Center, and they ended up playing a recording of the statement of the interview instead of putting the child on the stand, and they still managed to convict the guy.

[00:14:36] So this young child did not have to testify in court, but they still convicted based just on the work that the CAC did in the forensic interview where that was recorded and it was done well enough that was all they needed. They didn't have to further traumatize. And that's exactly, that's the ultimate of what CACs strive to do is reduce trauma and additional stress on kids.

[00:15:00] And we just had that amazing victory over the summer here in Muskingum County.

[00:15:05] Elizabeth: Bravo. Congratulations. That's, getting a conviction is always incredible, but to know that he legitimately only ever had to tell his story just once after it happened, that is such a blessing to that boy's life and his future.

[00:15:20] Having to go back and constantly reliving, constantly talk about it, that's really hard. And I'm speaking from experience. It's hard, it's exhausting.

[00:15:30] Robin: So that's what CACs are doing, right, is bringing kids in, recording the interviews, doing this process, the goal being to bring services to the family instead of having them go to four or five different places, that's what they're doing right. That model really does work when everybody pulls together as a team to make it happen.

[00:15:53] Elizabeth: And as far as our justice or legal system goes, where do you feel like improvements could be made?

[00:16:01] Robin: The speed of the process. That eight months to get from the initial disclosure to the inside of what to even get on the prosecutor's desk for review, much less getting on a court calendar anywhere.

[00:16:16] Roni: I agree with you.

[00:16:17] Lisa: There needs to be a lot more trauma informed training in law enforcement and any capacity that you come into contact with a victim, you need to have at least baseline training cuz there's still a lot of harmful language and interactions being had unfortunately with victims, especially in smaller communities that have that that prideful reaction to different things happening among families.

[00:16:46] Robin: That they don't teach trauma informed interviewing or victims' rights in police academies, and I think they should.

[00:16:53] Elizabeth: I'm actually shocked that they, I suppose I shouldn't be shocked, but I am surprised that like the curriculum hasn't been updated to include that. I think you're absolutely right because how many victims are they in touch with?

[00:17:06] I imagine they come in touch with victims every single day.

[00:17:09] Robin: And some officers are really good about it. We've actually gotten some referrals from where an officer has said, "Hey, call these people. They can help you." So we do get referrals from law enforcement, but not all of them understand victims' rights.

[00:17:24] Not all of them are trauma informed in terms of how they interact with individuals. So if, I think that should be a, an industry standard in terms of being trauma informed when you're interacting with someone who's just been traumatized by something.

[00:17:41] Elizabeth: So how do people get in touch with you? I mean, is it, is it mandated, for instance, if a child has been traumatized in a crime, do police automatically bring them to you or is it referral based, or do they have to look you up on your own? I mean, how do people and children in particular go from their situation of perhaps abuse to walking in your front door?

[00:18:05] Roni: We get a lot of referrals through law enforcement. We also get referrals through children's services. But a lot of our referrals is through law enforcement. But very few do we get referrals just from people reaching out to Evonne and making just that referral, themselves. But it is mainly through law enforcement and children's services.

[00:18:32] Robin: With mandated reporting, any time a child discloses that abuse has been made, there has to be a police report and there has to be an investigation from Children's Services to ensure the child is safe. So most Children's Justice Centers work like this where the child is referred for forensic interviewing based on a disclosure and the police report that was required to be made about that disclosure.

[00:18:57] So that's why it tends to come through either law enforcement or children's services because there's been a disclosure, it's been documented, and they're doing the due diligence as far as follow up.

[00:19:07] Elizabeth: That's good to hear that there is a process in place for that.

[00:19:11] Robin: Mm-hmm. Um, now if somebody, if they, if a child told their parent that this happened to them and a parent doesn't know what they're supposed to do, who they're supposed to call, that's where they could come through our program, Family Health Services, had some victim services program. We would obviously take them to the appropriate law enforcement agency and help them fill out that police report to get the part, to get everything started in terms of the process that needs to happen. But they can contact us through our website, Facebook page, they can pick up the phone and call our 800 number. However they need to contact us. If they don't know who they're supposed to call or who they're supposed to tell, they can certainly start with us and we can lead them through the right process. That's why victim advocates exist out in the communities.

[00:20:03] Elizabeth: I feel like you just answered this question, but I'm going to ask it again and please, each of you take time to answer this question. What is it that you wish the public knew more about you?

[00:20:17] Robin: For me, just what victim advocates do. People don't know what we're supposed to do, or they think we have some official standing, like we're lawyers and there are some programs that provide legal assistance to victims of crime, but victim advocates are generally just people who have been trained in how to navigate various systems.

[00:20:36] So I guess I would wish people would realize what a victim advocate is and how we can and can't help in situations.

[00:20:43] Elizabeth: I think you're definitely right. That is good information to educate yourself on. how about anyone else, Robin?

[00:20:49] Lisa: Yeah, just that, that victim advocates exist. A fun full circle fact is Robin came and.

[00:20:55] Elizabeth: Oops. Sorry. I met Lisa. I was looking at you. It's okay.

[00:21:00] Lisa: It's hard on Zoom. But Robin came and spoke to one of my college classes before that I didn't even know victim advocacy was a thing. So to just know that we exist and to know that we are most of the time a 24 hour resource.

[00:21:16] I have a work phone that I have on me all the time that victims can text or call if they need support or information. So it's just, it's good information to have and that we help with reducing barriers. So a lot of folks if they need that moral support to make that phone call or to, to help with getting transportation or whatever it is that they might need.

[00:21:40] We're a big resource for reducing barriers for them.

[00:21:44] Elizabeth: I think that's great. And what about you, Roni? What is something you wish the public just knew more about?

[00:21:50] Roni: I wish the public knew more about being a forensic interviewer is, it's very important. It's very important, being able to talk to a child about very sensitive topics. To talk to a child about abuse or neglect and to gain the trust of a child. I wish there was more people out there that would take the time to have that interest to do that.

[00:22:16] And that would be willing to do that. It's not easy to have the conversation with the child about abuse or neglect but it can be challenging, yet it can be rewarding also, when you sit down with a child and you see the weight lift off their shoulders and see that they have told their story to you and they finally told their story that they have been holding in for so long.

[00:22:45] Elizabeth: I said last week to Evonne and Amanda, and I have to repeat it because you are in the same line of work, but I just have the deepest and utmost respect for each one of you. I know I've mentioned this before and I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it again, but, I am approached on a regular basis with people telling me their stories and talking about it, and it's heartbreaking to listen to.

[00:23:11] It's heartbreaking to hear the different stories. It's, it can be shocking you to think that we live in a world where so much abuse or neglect or sexual violence is happening in, and you just, I just have, sometimes I'm just shocked that a human being could do that to another human being. And I know that those stories don't leave me very lightly.

[00:23:32] I sit and think about 'em a lot and I have so much respect for each of you that not only you chose to come in and make this like your lifelong work, but that you keep coming back every day because it is such a needed resource, such a needed service, and how lucky communities are to have CJCs in their midst, and to have victim advocates and trauma infor, properly trained forensic interviewers. Not just any interviewer can do this job and be able to handle it and help the child or victims handle it. I just have so much respect and admiration for each one of you because honestly, I, I don't know. I don't know that I could do what you do day in and day out.

[00:24:27] You are absolutely incredible individuals, and you have, as I've already said my undying respect for each one of you, and I just want to say, thank you not just for being here today, but thank you on behalf of myself and just victims everywhere for continuing to come back and continuing to do the work that you do.

[00:24:50] I personally so appreciate it and I know that victims appreciate it, especially as they go on in their life. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so very much. And I'm going to end this episode right here because I want to leave people in awe of how incredible you are and the work that you do, and I just would encourage everyone to go look in your area, see if there's a children's justice center, a children's advocacy center in your area.

[00:25:19] Find a way to support them, whether that's just volunteering or maybe you are able to donate or as we learned last week you can go on Amazon and a portion of the things that you buy are donated to these different organizations. If you haven't chosen one yet, go look up Heroes Landing. Let them be your charity of choice.

[00:25:40] And so with that being said, thank you again to each one of you. Appreciate your time and so appreciate everything you do. And with that being said, I wanna say thank you to our audience members. Please rate and review us online, wherever you may listen to this podcast and we'll catch you next time on Smart Talks.

[00:26:00] Thank you.