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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

[00:00:13] I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

[00:00:25] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am your host, Elizabeth Smart, and today I am joined by Evonne Saunders and Amanda McClellan. I am very excited to have them because they play such an important and vital role within our community. They both work at Heroes Landing, which is a children's justice center based out in Ohio.

[00:00:51] And for those of you who don't know what a children's justice center is, we will get way more in depth into it in just a minute. But a brief overview of what it is, after a child has been abused or raped or sexually hurt, they are brought to a children's justice center where they go through, what could be the worst part after trauma has happened, but fortunately, these children's justice centers happen to help prevent that trauma from being any worse than it has to be. Evonne is she is the children's justice center. She's Heroes Landing director, and Amanda who is with us, is a SANE nurse. And a SANE nurse is, both these people, you have to be such a special person to hold either of these positions.

[00:01:40] But a SANE nurse is a nurse who is specially trained to help do a forensic examination of a child after abuse or sexual trauma has happened. So I am very excited to have both of them with me. And just to kick things right off, I'm gonna go to Evonne first and just ask her straight out of the gate to explain what is the children's justice center, or what is a children's justice center.

[00:02:07] Evonne: Sure. Hi Elizabeth. Thank you so much for having us. I appreciate you dedicating an episode to highlight the work that a children's justice center does and we're extremely thankful that you chose to highlight Heroes Landing as well. So Heroes Landing, itself was founded in 2021. And our mission is to empower child abuse survivors by providing multidisciplinary evaluations.

[00:02:33] So speaking to that group of professionals you mentioned, who help coordinate advocacy and care at our child friendly facility. So at a CJC a child tells their story just once to a trained interviewer, and that interview is recorded and videotaped so it can be used for prosecution purposes, but the idea is to capture that story, allow them to only have to speak of that trauma once, and then we can share it as a group and review the findings.

[00:03:04] So a CJC model lends itself to higher rates of coordinated investigations. Children have a forensic medical exam, which Amanda will speak about and then higher rates of prosecutions are usually one of the big benefits of a CJC

[00:03:20] Elizabeth: And I just talked about...

[00:03:21] Evonne: So hero...

[00:03:21] Elizabeth: I'm sorry. Yeah, I just have to jump in real quick and say how important it is, how wonderful it is when a child can, when they only have to be interviewed once.

[00:03:32] In my case, I don't, I couldn't even tell you how many times I was interviewed and it didn't just happen like shortly after I got home. I mean, I was interviewed at the police station. I was interviewed by two psychiatrists who were supposed to supposedly supposed to be able to stand as proxy for me.

[00:03:51] Years later, I was then questioned by another psychiatrist. I was questioned by the FBI, so I mean, I was questioned countless times and it's hard even as an adult because I was an adult by the time that my case finally went to trial, and it was hard. It's exhausting going back, trying to remember all of the terrible details.

[00:04:12] So to be able to have to only go through it once is absolutely amazing. And sorry, Evonne, I just cut you off. Please continue.

[00:04:20] Evonne: No, that's a great testament to the model that we choose to use at Heroes Landing, right? So that the child only has to share this once in a child friendly setting, which I think is very important.

[00:04:32] It doesn't feel clinical, it doesn't feel scary. At least we strive to have it be very welcoming to both the child and their caregivers because we know that if they don't have this opportunity and they do have to relive the trauma, the side effects of what can happen, right? There's a strong correlation between having a traumatic experience and then having high risk behaviors later in life, whether it be addiction or smoking or trust issues. The list can go on and on in terms of what can happen after you've been through something that these children who come to our center have been through. So we really strive to make it a wonderful experience or as wonderful as it can be. As truly comforting as we can be as individuals at Heroes Landing.

[00:05:19] Elizabeth: And I just have to also say that when, as I've met survivors over the years, depending on how people react to their story the first time they hear it, really sets them on a trajectory. I mean, if they are able to share their story in a safe place with people who believe them and support them.

[00:05:37] I feel like that puts them on a much better trajectory than if they share it with the first time with someone who just questions them and says "I know that person" and "that's my dad's best friend," or "That's my uncle too." Or, not saying that it it is only men, but I feel like it's much more common to see survivors almost shut down and become reluctant to pursue help, to pursue a healthier lifestyle, to pursue support or even pursue sharing their story ever again if they are met with doubt if they're met with accusations of them lying or making it up. And so I just wanted to reemphasize that first interaction of having someone believe your story in a safe environment. I think that just makes such a huge difference in a survivor's healing and really lifelong trajectory.

[00:06:32] Evonne: And those are impactful words that you just said. I believe you. So many children are in their head about, "was it me? Did I do something wrong? Is this my fault?" And by telling them and stating, "I believe you, by you coming forward, you did a brave thing. I'm here to support you. I'm here to make sure you're safe."

[00:06:52] Our group actually just took this wonderful abuse training yesterday called Darkness to Light, and it really reemphasized why we do what we do, how to interact with children who are survivors of abuse and really making sure that they have the confidence and feel backed by our center. For sure.

[00:07:11] Elizabeth: I just really do believe it. It's so impactful and it just makes such a huge difference that if you are listening to this podcast and you're wondering, oh, do I have a CJC in my area, definitely go and look it up, see if you can volunteer or support them in any way that you can because they are so important in communities and they provide so much service, they're just incredible organizations. Definitely look up in your community and see if you have one there.

[00:07:40] See how you can get involved because they just do a work that honestly, is so needed, but it takes such special people to fulfill that role because it is a very hard role. And speaking of that role, Evonne, can you talk a little bit about what your specific role is?

[00:07:55] Evonne: Sure. So as Executive Director of Heroes Landing, I am charged with building the initiative from ground up. Muskingham County in Ohio did not have a CJC before we opened our doors. So we were asking children and caregivers to travel up to an hour away to receive these services. So imagine that you're asking a family to take time off of work or maybe to take a child out of school, pay for gas. It was just, there are too many hurdles, so having one locally, it was very important.

[00:08:27] And since we've been open, it's been a busy year. We've developed our team of multidisciplinary experts. We'll speak to Amanda, we'll speak to Robin and Lisa. And then also established protocols and standards of care. So that's very exciting as we become a developing center. We also located, renovated, and then opened our doors in Zanesville, Ohio.

[00:08:51] We fundraised and are on solid financial footing for sustainability for years to come. But then I have the benefit of working with fantastic group of advisory board members who really help make sure that we're maintaining our vision and our mission for Heroes Landing. And then most importantly, one of the most fun things I do are things like this podcast.

[00:09:11] I create awareness and spread the word that Heroes Landing is a children's justice center for children who are survivors of abuse. So I get to speak at different events or help spread the word by having fundraisers within the community. So it's been really fantastic to do this over the last year and a half.

[00:09:30] And it's quite a dynamic role for sure. No day is the same, but I truly enjoy working with the professionals that I work with, and then seeing these children come through our doors was amazingly rewarding when we opened our doors in May.

[00:09:44] Elizabeth: That's incredible. And now Amanda, I just wanna jump to you because I think when people hear the word SANE or SANE nurse, they think, what is that like, are other nurses insane? Are they normal? What's going on? So do you mind explaining and breaking down your role a little bit.

[00:10:01] Amanda: Sure. Thanks for having me. So I am a SANE nurse. SANE stands for Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner. There's two different levels. One is SANE A for adult and adolescents, and one is SANE P for pediatrics.

[00:10:16] So you'd need additional training depending on the age group. And our role is to look at the child and see their needs through a medical lens. What are their health needs? What is their previous health history? Are they on medications for something? Are they injured or have previous injuries we need to look at?

[00:10:37] We also have to decide, should there be STI testing, should there be pregnancy testing, and follow them up over time. I'll even do depression screenings with kids 12 and up just to see how we're gonna be able to help them best with their health needs. Once the exam is done.

[00:10:55] Elizabeth: When, a new patient when a new survivor walks through your door, can you walk me through a process a little bit of what typically happens or what, heaven forbid, anyone listening to this ever needs to go through this. But if someone is what they can expect to happen

[00:11:15] Amanda: At this time, most of the patients, most of the kids we're seeing, the abuse happened at least more than three days ago. It could be years and years ago. So every case is very different. They're gonna come in, they meet with our patient advocate. The parent or guardian or social worker will fill out some paperwork. They'll have the forensic interview, and then they go directly to my exam room where I will do the exam.

[00:11:42] And then afterwards they'll meet with the the patient advocates again and will kind of come up with a plan for what's next. So it's in a house with three bedrooms and, we've renovated it and it's beautiful, it's cozy. My exam room does look like a pediatrician's office, but it's comfortable.

[00:12:01] It shouldn't be anything that worries them or be very scary, so we try to make it very calm for them.

[00:12:08] Elizabeth: So if a child comes to you who's been abused, but maybe the abuse is years old, why is it still important to have that medical forensic exam?

[00:12:21] Amanda: Oh, that's a great question. And I do see that I have some older kids that come in and they really feel like they don't need it, but once they're done with it, they're happy they had it.

[00:12:31] So my exam really depends on what the child needs. There's certain things I'm always gonna try to do and I'm trying to get their health history. I do try to do a head to toe exam. Sometimes they decline and that's their choice. They're in charge of the room is what I often tell them. But what we get out of it is a lot of education.

[00:12:51] There's questions that they've never been able or felt like they could ask, and they're able to ask me that. So it is definitely worth it. Even if there has been no physical trauma it's been years and years ago, they can ask me questions that maybe they have trouble asking other people and then I can kind of help advise them.

[00:13:11] 'Cause as Evonne mentioned, these kids are at higher risk for other activities. So I'm able to do some education on prevention, and how they can stay healthy and answer those basic questions for them.

[00:13:25] Elizabeth: It's so hard to talk about this because I wanna say great opportunity, but at the same time, nobody should have this kind of great opportunity. But I mean, I even just think of I'm al.. Wow, I don't wanna say, I'm always thinking of myself because that makes me sound like I only think of myself. But as I sit and I've toured different CJCs and as I've listened to other processes, I sit and think of what my own was. And I mean it like it was, I would not recommend my process, the process I went through to anyone.

[00:14:02] I mean, I felt like just people were walking in and out of the doors all the time. I know they performed a rape kit on me, but I didn't understand what a rape kit was, and I just remember sitting there watching them combing my pubic hair thinking this is the weirdest, maybe not most inappropriate by that point, but strangest thing I've ever had happen at a doctor's office to me, and there was just so much information I did not know at that time.

[00:14:29] And then even as I continued on, in my, into my, adult life and into marriage, there have been times when I've wondered is that normal? Is that how everyone's is or is that just me? Mm-hmm. So I think really ha being able to have that time to, to just ask you questions. I mean, even if they weren't physically abused, I think that is a really well, great opportunity for victims and survivors to have because you don't know the answers.

[00:15:00] I mean, I still don't know the answers to a lot of things, and I just think to have that one on one time in a safe place with a safe person that you can ask any question you want or you feel like you would like an answer to. I feel like that is so valuable.

[00:15:17] How did you make the decision to become a SANE nurse? Because I imagine it's not an easy job. It's not just something you take on lightheartedly.

[00:15:27] Amanda: No it's not, it's kind of a process which a lot of the nursing field is that way, you become a nurse to help people and then as you get more experienced, you kind of fall into the roles you're comfortable with.

[00:15:39] I've been a registered nurse for 25 years now. 17 of those years have been primarily women, women's health. I'm also a lactation consultant, so a lot of, lot of babies. And I just wanted to do a little bit more, so I became a women's health nurse practitioner. So I've been working in that role for little over five years now.

[00:16:01] And what I have seen from working in that role is sometimes decades later people are asking me questions about their assault or maybe I'm the first person they've told. I'll have a 25 year old who's in her first real relationship and she's like, I was sexually abused, am I normal down there?

[00:16:20] So I was seeing that after, you know, in my just regular GYN practice and it just kind of started, I just felt like I could do something more earlier, which is what Heroes Landing does is, you know, we're there as soon as we can be and can kind of help them through the process so that they're not 35 years old still wondering if their anatomy is normal, just to be able to help them earlier. So a SANE position came up at local hospital and I became a SANE nurse for adults and adolescents. And then I was approached to join the Heroes Landing Team. And so that's when I did my training for pediatrics.

[00:16:57] So it's been kind of a, a process and everything I've learned as a nurse for 25 years has prepared me for that. I don't know if this would've been the best role for me as a fresh, 22 year old graduate. I'm sure there's some people out there who can, but it's been kind of a slow build to build my confidence to be able to build a rapport quickly with patients and make them feel comfortable.

[00:17:21] Elizabeth: I mean, I have so much respect honestly, for both of you because to see the trauma and the violence and the abuse that takes place in this world, I feel like it would be very easy to, I'd almost go into a downward spiral and think we live in such a horrible world. How could people commit these kinds of atrocities, especially against children?

[00:17:43] So I'm interested to ask both of you, what are the things that keep you going? What is it that inspires you to continue working in this field?

[00:17:53] Amanda: It's very difficult. My children are, for the most part grown. I think it would've been a little harder maybe if I had small kids at the home. But I see a lot of really good people and that helps. And then just the kids and the reactions it helps me through cause I know I'm helping them.

[00:18:11] So kind of like what your story was is this normal? I had a, a girl in her teens, early teens who had been abused years and years before, well before puberty, well before she was a teenager and just in the quietest voice, she wanted to know if she was normal, so I was able to do an exam and let her know you are perfectly healthy and normal.

[00:18:32] Nobody can tell you've been abused by looking at you. And the look on her mom, I'm gonna cry, and her face, it was just golden. It was like, okay, I have helped this kid and she's gonna go into adulthood knowing that her anatomy is normal. She still has to deal with a lot of trauma, but physically she's whole.

[00:18:55] And, um, that just gives me hope and kind of keeps me going.

[00:19:01] Elizabeth: That's amazing. And what about you, Evonne? Like what, what inspires you to keep going?

[00:19:06] Evonne: Sure. I have to say, having Amanda on the team has been absolutely fantastic because she truly cares. You can see how her professional life progressed to then have her do this important work at Heroes Landing.

[00:19:21] But I find working here, being truly grateful for the people who have come on board and believe in the mission. My inspiration is very different. I think being a mom first and foremost, I don't ever, ever want to imagine anything like this happening to my children. And if any of anything were to happen to them or someone we care about or someone within the community, I get reassurance knowing that this model is in place. I think it's fantastic that Muskingum County now has a CJC that children can turn to, and caregivers can turn to, once the abuse has been reported. So it's for the betterment of the community. It's to keep my children safe. It's to make sure we have these resources within our community.

[00:20:07] It's to keep people who you know, who are the alleged perpetrators away from children. That's the type of community that I wanna live in, that I wish to contribute to, that I wanna raise my family in. And so knowing that I have a part in that is extremely fulfilling. And it doesn't take a lot to keep me motivated in this job, but that for sure is the crux of it for me.

[00:20:29] Elizabeth: Well, I just think that it's ironic that your CJC is called Heroes Landing because when I think of anyone who takes up work in this field, I legitimately think of them as heroes because it, I mean, it is gut wrenching and it can be so difficult and I know for myself, even sometimes for me, and I don't work like in like the direct processing of trauma.

[00:20:56] But as I have survivors approach me it's even hard for me to disconnect from this world at night when I'm at home with my own family, I mean, it's to the point where I don't watch hardly any violent or exciting or like overly emotional kind of movies at night. I am all about the light and fluffy, like baking shows at night, at the end of the day.

[00:21:18] And so I just, I think Heroes Landing is such a perfect name because you both are such heroes. And then truly every survivor who walks through that door, who finds the courage to take this step, to take the steps through the doors they in, in themselves, are heroes. And I would want the children and the other survivors who are adults now or who are experiencing it right now to know that even if no one else ever hears your story and you go to a CJC and share your story, you are a hero. The amount of courage that it takes to open yourself up to that level of vulnerability and to be willing to go through the worst moments of your life, at least one more time is so brave and it takes so much strength that no other name could possibly fit you other than heroes.

[00:22:13] So Heroes Landing is really such a perfect name for both sides. Because I think all of you really are heroes. What is, for my last question, and I'd like both of you to answer this, but what is something you would want the public to know more about?

[00:22:32] Amanda: I think medically, I really, really want parents to consider using appropriate names for their children's private parts for a couple of reasons. One there should be no shame in having a body and when we're really secretive and we can say arm and elbow and nose and eyes, but we can't say penis, we're automatically kind of shaming that area of the body, but it's also for disclosure.

[00:22:58] If you nickname the labia a "cookie," which is real world, people call it that. And that child discloses so and so touched my cookie, what adult is going to know what they're talking about unless they're really focused in on that?

[00:23:14] So you have a child that's disclosing, but they don't have the right language, and that's just heartbreaking for me. I do understand that people are uncomfortable. So I guess my request is if they're five or under having a name that you understand. Front private part, pee pee, poo hole. I mean, it, it can be ridiculous but understandable.

[00:23:38] As they get older, I really do encourage using appropriate names because we do not wanna shame people for having bodies. But I have 12 year olds that can't say the name of their body, that they'll say the bad part, and it just breaks my heart because on top of the trauma, they already think that part's bad anyway.

[00:23:57] So medically that's kind of my request to parents is let's consider using some language that is proactive and helpful and healthy.

[00:24:06] Elizabeth: Oh, you just described me 100% as a kid. Not that my parents, my parents did the best they could, but we just, we didn't talk about penis. We didn't talk about vagina. We didn't know any of that, or we just didn't talk about it. And so when I was being interviewed just right after I was rescued. It was so hard for me. I felt so much shame and embarrassment. I don't think the situation was particularly great to begin with because, you know, I was a, by that point, a 15 year old girl, and I was being interviewed by two male middle aged men, and I just came out of being kidnapped and being held captive by a middle aged man.

[00:24:50] But having to describe to them and like initially be just starting with, "well, they hurt me." "Well, how'd they hurt you?" "Well, they molested me." "Well, how'd they molest you?" "Well, well, they raped me well." "Do you know what rape is?" " Yeah." "Can you explain it to me?" "Well, he, you know, he, he stuck himself in me." "Can you say the body parts?" "He forced his penis into my vagina." I mean, really bringing it down to that level was so hard for me. It was so embarrassing for me. I just was, I was mortified and I hated it. And I hated the whole experience of talking to these two men. it was terrible. And so I think you are absolutely right.

[00:25:27] The importance of being able to say penis and vagina without shame is so important. You're right. It should be the same as saying elbow or arm. So thank you for that advice. I do think it is so just important that we don't attach shame to our bodies and that we use the right, the correct body parts.

[00:25:45] I occasionally wish that, that my children who are young wouldn't run around and just scream penis and vagina at the top of their heads. But if anyone ever touches them, then they'll know the right body parts to say.

[00:25:58] Amanda: Right. It is. It can be uncomfortable sometimes, but it's so important and if we don't pass that shame onto them, it's gonna be easier for them when they're parents and hopefully we can kind of get rid of that stigma of having a body.

[00:26:12] Elizabeth: I could not agree more. And what about you, Evonne? What is something that you wish that the public knew more about?

[00:26:20] Evonne: I think one of the most important things is that if your gut tells you that something feels off or that something feels wrong, it is more important to speak up and say something than to have it keep you awake at night for the next, the next week or however long, and keep thinking about it. So having the tools, having the resources to know how to report abuse is something that I often share at speaking engagements. So there is a state hotline and for Ohio there's, it's 855-OH-CHILD and you can call that number to report any suspicion of abuse.

[00:27:01] And then of course, any, in any state, you can call your Children Protective Services, your sheriff's office, police department, but is more important to speak up than the unimaginable, which is that the child goes through additional abuse. So follow your gut, speak up, know the resources or numbers to call.

[00:27:23] Or reach out and try to figure that out. But that see something, say something saying for sure rings true for justice centers as well. And then I think I encourage people to get involved and I know that might seem trite but it's a really rewarding experience to be able to give back, especially helping children within a community.

[00:27:45] So if you have a Children's Justice Center volunteer there, it could be anything from supplying snacks to stuffing, giveaway bags for a fundraiser, but find a way to volunteer and give back or invite us to speak. I can't tell you how many people say, I'd love to learn more about your organization.

[00:28:07] And then I say who are you, or what organization are you a part of? I'd love to come speak to your entire group. So by speaking up about what we do and sharing our mission, we're able to spread awareness within our community. And for sure you can visit our website to find out more. It's heroeslandingCJC.org.

[00:28:25] And then, If you wanna fi, contribute financially, we have an Amazon charity list that you can shop or choose us as your charity of choice where we receive a percentage of the money that you spend on Amazon at no cost to you. So there's several ways to get involved. But most importantly, please, please, please familiarize yourself with the ways to report abuse if you were ever to have concerns about a child.

[00:28:52] Elizabeth: I think that is also such important and great advice. Educate yourselves on what the signs are because if you don't know what you're looking at, how can you appropriately respond? But trusting your gut is also is huge. And I've said this before and I know I'll say it again, but if you think that someone else is gonna see something that you don't or someone else knows better, and if we all think that, then no one is ever gonna make that call.

[00:29:20] So making sure that you just take that initiative and call, I mean, the best case scenario is that you're wrong. This is a kind of situation where you want to be wrong. Everyone on this team will want you to be wrong. Nobody wants a child to be abused. The police will want you to be wrong. I mean, everyone should be hoping that they're wrong, but even if you're hoping that you're wrong, you still don't know because what if it really is a child being abused?

[00:29:48] What if it really is someone being trafficked? What if it really is a person being hurt? So if you see something, absolutely look up, find those phone numbers specific to your area that you can call and make sure you have a plan in place. You know, tape those numbers to your fridge or enter them into your phone just so that if you see something, you just can pick up your phone and just, you don't even have to think about it.

[00:30:13] You don't have to look it up online. They're already in your phone and just dial them and say, "Hey, I'm not sure, but something seems off about this situation. Could you please have someone come check it out?" Once again, best case scenario is that you're wrong, but worst case scenario is that there might be something going on there, so I could not agree more with you.

[00:30:34] And then just echoing what Evonne said, you know, we all shop on Amazon. Amazon is everyone's best friend. Why not just go make them your charity of choice. If it's no extra cost, no extra bother to you, and they get an amount, a proceed from what you're already spending, why not?

[00:30:52] Let's help our community. Let's help each other out. To both of you, Amanda and Evonne, I wanna just say thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day, cuz I know you both are very busy and I so appreciate it. I have just loved everything that both of you have said. I appreciate what you both do.

[00:31:12] Genuinely from the bottom of my heart just sitting here talking to you, it's just made me think, dang it. I wish I went through Heroes Landing instead of what I did go through when I was rescued. So what a jewel Ohio has in having you. So I just wanna say thank you, not only for spending your time with me today, but thank you for continuing the work that you do every day because I just know it makes such a huge difference and such an impact for the better for survivors.

[00:31:44] So thank you. Thank you to you both so much.

[00:31:47] Amanda: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[00:31:50] Evonne: And thanks for giving us, Elizabeth.

[00:31:52] Elizabeth: It was my pleasure. And with that being said, I wanna say thank you to everyone for tuning in to this episode. Please make sure to rate and review us and don't miss our next episode next week.

[00:32:05] See you soon. Bye-Bye.