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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

[00:00:10] I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

[00:00:22] Welcome to another episode of Smart Talks, I am Elizabeth Smart. And today, actually, we have a whole group of people. So breaking in tradition, I'm going to allow each one of them to introduce themselves. I will first turn the time over to Judge Ron Cable to introduce himself.

[00:00:42] Judge Ron Cable: Well, good afternoon. I'm judged Ron Cable of the Akron Municipal Court.

[00:00:45] Elizabeth: Great. And then our two other guests, if both of you wouldn't mind introducing yourselves.

[00:00:50] Anne: So I'm Anne Kichurchak, I am co-founder and also community outreach here at Hope Meadows Foundation.

[00:00:57] Lisa: And hello, I'm Lisa Porcher. I'm the clinical director at Hope Meadows Foundation.

[00:01:02] Elizabeth: And just jumping right in at the beginning, what is Hope Meadows, if you wouldn't mind explaining and talking a little bit about yourselves.

[00:01:10] Anne: Hope Meadows is equine assisted psychotherapy. So we take a holistic approach with traditional therapies that you might utilize in the therapeutic setting of an office.

[00:01:23] But sometimes we find that some clients can also benefit from taking them out of a traditional therapy setting and bringing them in the arena with horses, with a therapist , which would be Lisa and then myself, I'm also an equine specialist. So in our modality, working with the horses in a therapy session, Lisa would be acting in taking care of the client's mental health.

[00:01:50] And then I will be watching the horses and their behavior and through all of that, I'm giving feedback to Lisa and it's just more of a non-intrusive way sometimes to go deep, pretty quick sometimes with clients that just sometimes with trauma, or any type of mental health that they're dealing with, it's sometimes just really hard to put words to what you're feeling and through the horses , they're able to mirror what's going on with that client. And we often say you can fake it with people, right. But you really just can't fake it with a horse, because they are prey animals. We are the predator.

[00:02:26] So the moment you step into that arena, a horse is basically wondering, and constantly scanning their environment and wondering if we are safe to even be around and also engage with.

[00:02:36] Elizabeth: I'm sitting here thinking. I think I would like to have done that. Horses played a huge part of my healing , but it was just up riding in the mountains with my grandpa. But I think you bring up some very excellent points that maybe when people hear oh, equine therapy or, you know what, I don't even understand what it is. Like, what are you talking about?

[00:02:56] Just sit on a horse and it makes you better. To me, I want to say, yeah, that does make me better actually, but I think you bring up such a great point, horses are prey animals, and they are constantly scanning their environment. And I know as I've sat on a horse before, like if I'm unhappy, if I'm feeling nervous, then all of a sudden the horse starts to prance around a little bit and dance around and get nervous and get extra jumpy.

[00:03:19] And I think that is such a interesting way to really key into their rider's emotions and feelings. And so to listen to you say how basically you tag team, each client. That must just be absolutely fascinating.

[00:03:36] Anne: Yeah. It's amazing to really watch and be part of sometimes big healing for some of these people and definitely seeing is believing for sure.

[00:03:46] Elizabeth: And now if I can jump to Judge Cable, how have all three of you connected?

[00:03:53] Judge Ron Cable: Well, we've connected oftentimes, for our participants in RISE , which stands for Restore Individual Self-Empowerment. We apply for grants to do additional things for the participants in our program, we offer a wide variety of services and I will say the equine therapy, how I was present, the last time women went out there and it was really interesting to see them build confidence and be able to talk about their feelings and problems. And I felt that it was extremely beneficial. So fortunately we have a lot of resources in our community and we're able to get grant dollars and Hope Meadows has been a great partner of ours.

[00:04:33] Elizabeth: And can you tell me a little bit more about RISE?

[00:04:36] Judge Ron Cable: I used to work at the juvenile court, I was a magistrate there, and I got involved with a program they had for sex trafficking victims, or survivors, I should say, that are juveniles. And when I won the bench and the municipal court, I just thought, sex trafficking doesn't stop when someone turns 18.

[00:04:56] So there's certainly more sex trafficking survivors in our community that need to have some help. We're really, science-based, the victims go through a screening process. And we started to find them, and we have a pretty good group of about 15 right now, that they come to court every two weeks and I talk with them and make sure they're in compliance with everything that they're supposed to do.

[00:05:18] It's a unique, because although they've been victimized, they're also criminal defendants and we certainly don't treat them as criminal defendants at RISE, we really try to encourage them. And interestingly enough, they're usually suspicious of us in the beginning, which is a red flag for human trafficking.

[00:05:37] And they're not trustful of the court, but after they've been in the program for awhile they look at the court as a safe place to come to. So we have even some of our folks when they're having a bad day or having trouble, or they're not feeling safe, they actually show up at the courthouse and we have social workers and a coordinator that helps them with whatever their needs might be.

[00:06:00] I guess the biggest needs that all of our participants have is the need for trauma therapy and counseling. So every single one of them have that. We also offer drug counseling. And most of our participants need some type of drug counseling, oftentimes that's, that was the beginning of them being trafficked.

[00:06:20] Their trafficker had got them addicted to drugs in order to control them. So oftentimes that's needed. And after they're stabilized, we help them with finding jobs, and housing and we do a few fun things too. But like I said the equine therapy was really enjoyed by all of the participants that went out there.

[00:06:42] Elizabeth: Do all of your participants that come through RISE go to Hope Meadows and are able to experience that?

[00:06:49] Judge Ron Cable: We're hoping that they do We wouldn't have somebody go out there that wasn't ready. Some of our participants, they have pretty severe drug addictions and trauma.

[00:07:00] And in the beginning sometimes, they may be in residential treatment for a period of time. So, we obviously wouldn't pull them for that to take them the Hope Meadows, but there are different stages of our program. And, once they get into the second stage and they're stabilized and feeling a little better.

[00:07:15] Elizabeth: These human trafficking survivors coming through court, they're on the defense or they're being looked at or charged with something. I'm, surely not being charged with being trafficked. What are they typically in trouble for?

[00:07:30] Judge Ron Cable: Okay. That's a great question. A lot of times it's solicitation or prostitution, so, they get picked up on these charges because they're having sex for money for the profit of somebody else.

[00:07:42] So maybe they're the ones that show up at the hotel when there's a bust and their trafficker isn't there. But we have a task force here that really tries to talk to the person that potentially could be arrested and figure out whether or not they're the victim of human trafficking.

[00:07:59] So sometimes they get charged. Sometimes they're very afraid to admit that they're a victim of human trafficking and they may be brought up on those charges. Sometimes, it's a little bit trickier than that. You just see a long history, of things that are maybe repeat offenses like maybe there's one solicitation in the past and a bunch of thefts, oftentimes traffickers will not only traffic their victims for sex, sometimes they'll force them to steal and do different other crimes for them as well. It's a little bit tricky, but there are red flags and every single case where some of these red flags come up, we at least have that individual screened to see whether or not they may have somebody that's taking advantage of them.

[00:08:43] And although many of them don't, some of them do and we've been able to identify, I would say between 50 and a hundred survivors. And they don't all decide to go into the program. Some of them might not be ready.

[00:08:56] The ones that do I feel like we made a pretty significant impact on their life.

[00:09:01] Elizabeth: And if a survivor of human trafficking was, or a victim, was listening to this podcast would you say it's a safe place for them to come to court? Just by themselves? Even if they haven't been picked up for something yet?

[00:09:17] Judge Ron Cable: Yeah, I believe it is. I think that there's a lot more awareness than there's ever been and I do some national seminars and so forth, and it seems that judges all over the country and courts are educated on human trafficking and know what to look for and certainly want to help any survivor that's out there that that wants to try to get away from their trafficker and that life.

[00:09:42] Elizabeth: And what would you say to those the victims who comes through the court who have been trafficked, but, and they end up reporting whoever it is, but maybe there's not enough evidence to go after their traffickers. Is there something you would want them to know?

[00:09:59] Judge Ron Cable: Well, I would want them to know that, a lot of us really do believe and just because they might not have enough evidence for a conviction, which isn't uncommon, I would encourage them to worry about themselves and to try to get away. And it, it seems like it would be easy maybe for some people, but it isn't because oftentimes the trafficker has a relationship of some kind with their victim. And it, it could be, we've had many different scenarios. Oftentimes it's a boyfriend or a significant other that sorta grooms the human trafficking survivor. Other times it's a family member. I've even had participants in my program whose ow n father has trafficked them and that's how it all started. Somehow, to the person being trafficked, it might almost seem like it's become a normal way of life. And I would say it's not normal at all. And we understand it's not easy to get away. But it's important that you try to take steps and you try to seek help.

[00:10:59] In every single community there's resources. And I would suggest to use those resources because there's a lot of people out there that really want to help you.

[00:11:10] Elizabeth: And with people wanting to help, I want to jump back over to Hope Meadows. What do you feel like has been the most common turning point for the survivors that you've been able to work with and what changes have you seen in them as you've helped them navigate their way through trauma?

[00:11:30] Anne: Really quick before we dive in clinically, one thing I can say when they do come to either one of our facilities, we really try to make them feel part of our group. And we do that by welcoming them. And we always have water available, we have snack time, and really try to engage them and make them feel comfortable.

[00:11:50] Just like Judge Cable said, I feel like sometimes when they even come in for treatment with us, you can see there's a wall up. And we do a nice little check-in with some horse cards and we have them pick a card sometimes, and it reflects how they might feel that day. And we really take the time to just really check in from the beginning and really take the time to listen to how they're feeling before we start any sessions with them.

[00:12:14] Lisa: And I would also say like a turning point, just like anything else can be different for everyone. But as Anne said, we really try to be very welcoming, offer a safe space and that they feel very secure. Sometimes the, we'll often hear those words, that this is the first time that they've been able to not like look over their shoulder and just be.

[00:12:34] I'm in the circle with them and, we continually share with them that, I'm mental health specialist and have 25 years of experience and I'm here for you and Anne's going to be watching the horses. And so the turning point could be just observing the horse, creating a story. It can happen fairly quickly or it can also be happening, but we don't know what's happening until maybe the fourth time of their visit. And they may say, I really thought a lot about that experience I had last week.

[00:13:04] I was able to bring it to my therapist and really talk more deeply. My self awareness is the most heightened it's ever been. We often hear them say, this is a relationship that I've been more able to set the pace because the horse is going to model and mirror, you know, what you're feeling, and if you're ready, just as you shared earlier, that if you show a lot of nervousness, maybe your horse, well, they'll also be protective.

[00:13:31] They'll wait until you're calmer and you feel ready and they'll approach you as you approach them. And that relationship is something that the person participating just learns that you do need certain boundaries, that relationships take time. They do build trust and you need mutual trust.

[00:13:49] The horse needs to trust you as much as you're starting to trust them. I think that the awesome turning points for us are just the self-awareness of where they're at, and they're not alone, and that there is healing. It gives them a step to sand starting to actually feel a little bit better.

[00:14:08] Or I'm having less of a flashback or I'm feeling like I can use the goodness of those sessions when I leave the session.

[00:14:18] Anne: I think to touch on our experience in working with RISE Court, two clients that stand out to me, it was really amazing to see in the beginning of session, two of them really weren't engaged.

[00:14:29] They came in with masks and at the end of the session, it was very touching to me personally, because, they even used the word tranquil and they removed the mask and they were engaged and it was just really awesome to see.

[00:14:40] Lisa: And Anne has a really creative way about her and the activity at the end, they were given a certain kinds of like, smooth stone that was in the shape of a heart.

[00:14:51] And the theme for that day was self compassion. We created a three-hour curriculum for them to really just have self-compassion, learn what that is and how they can do that to the horse and they can do it back. And so at the end, when Anne gave them their stone, it's again, that softness and not treating them as that they've done anything wrong, that we were all part of a community and that they were safe and that we cared about that and then wanted them to come back.

[00:15:19] And I think those moments are the moments that help them feel as though there is a turning point. That there is a change, their story can change.

[00:15:30] Elizabeth: One of the things that I think actually we all, probably all could use a little bit more of is self compassion. So when you talked about, you created this curriculum, I'm actually really interested to hear more.

[00:15:42] Like, how do you define self-compassion and how do you give that to yourself? And I know you said it's three hours and we obviously don't have three hours, but you could just take a few minutes and just talk about that because, we're all kind of victims of life. We all have our own story and we all have our own traumas.

[00:15:59] And I think having compassion for yourself is very important. None of us are perfect and none of us go through life unscathed. So if you wouldn't mind going down that rabbit hole for a minute, I'd love to listen to your thoughts on that.

[00:16:13] Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I think like Anne was sharing, maybe we can take you through the day a little bit. It's interesting when you say self compassion, it is a hard word. It's a hard concept to wrap your head around, but I think it's important when people have experienced something this traumatic, there could be shame or embarrassment and having compassion for yourself.

[00:16:33] So we will have them come in, typically, a nice ice breaker is we all sit around and have these cards that are just images, beautiful images of different horses, or a mom or, it could be a dad, whatever they define that as, or horses just around watering hole and pulling one and talking about what they notice, just start their story off of where they're at in their head, in their day, that day for self-compassion.

[00:16:56] And then we might define it and ask everyone to define it for themselves and just model that. And then Anne and I if she's the equine specialist and I'm the mental health specialist, we model a healthy relationship like listening and each other and offering and laughter. And just being in that moment with them, all those things are important.

[00:17:15] And then we're offering them to go into the arena. They feel safe to observe the horses and to observe how the horses, maybe show self compassion or compassion to one another. And what are they noticing? And they start to build that story from just observing. And then, Anne may invite them to go into the arena to relate with the horses.

[00:17:35] And then there may be different tools out there and they may decide to pick up brushes and brush them, or they may, you see both hands on the horse and how they want that more of a connection. Some will not be ready. But they're still observing and a lot of awareness of just where their fear is. Or if there's a horse way in the back, saying that horse is just like me, that horse is isolating. That horse doesn't feel wanted, they can create those stories. And then during that self-compassion we will ask them to label this.

[00:18:12] Anne: Yeah. For that in particular activity, we actually had each of the clients label on a rock, like a negative word that we might tell ourselves that is untrue. And then we had them, once they made a connection with a horse that they related with, we had them take the horse and lead them walking mindfully. And we had them throw the rock in the garbage and replace it with self-compassion and self-love.

[00:18:37] And I think we even had them repeat a mantra that they each came up with for themselves. It spoke to their hearts.

[00:18:44] Lisa: We often try to weave in a lot of positive affirmations and utilizing cards. And if sometimes they're not comfortable saying it to themselves, but they like to say it to the horse and maybe walk the horse around the arena, saying the positive affirmation.

[00:18:58] And then they start to realize that it's easier and easier in each time. And they develop a relationship. So we tend to, the next time we see this group, we might use the same horses possibly because they've really connected with a particular horse. And it just lets them, then again, have that compassion for the horse, which is really a lot of it is back to them.

[00:19:22] As they're taking care of them, that they might take care of themselves. And just be in the moment that's like Anne and I will often say there no right or wrong. If you're unable to lead the horse or that's not your choice, it's just what works for you.

[00:19:34] Anne: Um, another thing sometimes, we'll try to build off our curriculums with some of the clients that we work with in this type of therapy for them.

[00:19:42] And, another great one, sometimes we use that as really powerful too, is we literally will take sticky notes and have them write again, just something negative about themselves, or they might say throughout the day, and we ask them to label the horse and a lot of them can't do it. And we say to them, well, why is it okay to label yourself then?

[00:20:04] And it just can bring in a lot of emotion and epiphany sometimes, and.

[00:20:10] Lisa: Thinking because they've made a connection relationship with that, of course they don't want to put those negative labels and they can go full circle. So we really just really try to provide a very safe, consistent space.

[00:20:24] Anne: And really take the clients where they each are.

[00:20:26] Elizabeth: And that's really incredible, especially when you were saying, mentioning earlier when you said that a lot of clients will come in and will be like I feel safe here because I think of a lot of people, for example, before I was married, my family had this standing tradition that you, if you were dating someone, if you were interested in someone they needed to pass the ranch test, which was my grandparents, they had a ranch and they had horses, and we would have to take them up there and we'll take them on horseback ride and we'd see how they'd fair.

[00:20:56] And so I think every single grandchild did that. And thinking back on some of the dates that I took up there, it was very interesting to watch because on one hand they wanted to impress me. But on the other hand, I could see them battling with their fear of horses. It's not crazy to be scared of horses.

[00:21:18] I meanthey're big, thousand pounds plus animals, especially if you get some of the larger horse breeds out there, they can be quite intimidating. And yet, you bring up the point that they are a prey animal rather than a predator. But, when you said that they're saying that's one of the places that they've first felt safe in. Whereas a lot of people I think actually are quite intimidated and scared by horses. I think that says a lot to the work that you do and the environment that you create there and you help these survivors feel.

[00:21:52] Is it hard for you to come back every day and do this day in and day out?

[00:21:57] Lisa: Yes. I also think we have such an amazing team. We do take time to really like debrief and maybe write out our thoughts or just really process. And we see the benefit and we have to often tell each other, even if we didn't hear the words from them or feel like we really understood what they got out of it, we know they did because we get messages that are wonderful of evaluations of these life-changing comments and I think it makes it all worth it. And keep knowing that what we're doing is really helping. And being a traditional therapist, doing psychotherapy for so long, it is so heartwarming to know that what could be done in one session might take me six or eight,, if I'm lucky, in traditional therapy.

[00:22:49] Having the herd as our third component of our team just makes it so much easier. And they carry a burden. So when you say, is it hard for you? I think it's hard in traditional therapy, very much because it's just one-on-one but having the horse there, it's also helping me.

[00:23:07] I don't feel like everything's on my shoulders as the psychotherapist. And and I think Anne might feel that way too, that we're lean on the horses as well.

[00:23:15] Elizabeth: When you have these participants of the RISE program coming through Hope Meadows, is there a set number on how many times a client can come for a session or is it like a nine week program or is it, you come as long as you need this, or do you have clients saying I'm not ready to let go of this yet? Or I need some more time here or did they come back? I'm sorry, I'm so interested on really the evolution of these individuals and how RISE and Hope Meadows impact them and play a part in their life.

[00:23:51] Judge Ron Cable: There is really no limit as far as how many sessions they can have. We would go as a group and like I say it's grant funded and we've always been welcome to come out. I really look forward to the next time we're out there and, it seems a little different all of this because, I'm the judge that, supposedly sentences them and they're sentenced to RISE, which is really a positive thing.

[00:24:15] And we try to do things for them that's positive and productive, like the therapeutic experience they have at Hope Meadows. They look forward to things like that and it's good for them. And as Hope Meadows will keep having us, as long as we're able to go out and make it happen. I think it's a wonderful resource.

[00:24:33] Elizabeth: So is this something that you then stayed directly involved, every time these participants come to Hope Meadows, are you with them, judge?

[00:24:40] Judge Ron Cable: Yeah, I go out with them! I don't sit through the after therapy because I want them to speak freely. Believe it or not, a lot of them are real shy after they get to know me for a while on the bench, and, they'll say whatever's on their mind, but I want it to be a safe place.

[00:24:54] And, I still have a role as the judge, but they're not nervous or anything that I'm there. They actually encouraged me to come out there with them and, I'm out there with the horses too. And it's just a great experience.

[00:25:06] Elizabeth: I'm actually so impressed by that. I think even now as an adult, as someone who has been through a court trial, as someone who has been on the stand, the thought of actually going back quite intimidates me. If I had to, I would, but it's not something that I would necessarily want to do.

[00:25:24] And I don't have bad feelings against the judge or the prosecuting attorneys, maybe a little of resentment towards everyone on the defense team, except their lead attorney. I have respect for him. But I'm actually really impressed at how involved you stay. I don't know how common that is. That's amazing.

[00:25:42] Judge Ron Cable: Well, this, RISE is a two year program, actually. So, some of them it takes a little bit longer than that to get through all the steps and, it's a positive experience for everyone that's involved. The therapists that are on our team, Hope Meadows, the probation officer who's involved and, really becomes close with most of the participants are in the program. We have a coordinator, and we all get together and just try to problem solve.

[00:26:06] So I don't believe any of the participants are ever afraid to come to court. They actually enjoy it. They have lunch and we have some little goodie bags for them that they appreciate and we try to do some other things too.

[00:26:20] We have picnics and so forth in the summertime. For a lot of them, we're the only family that they've ever really had that has cared about them and, it's interesting. Several of our participants, they list our coordinator as their emergency contact and they just don't have anybody else.

[00:26:36] So I think that they're grateful to have us after they get to know us and we're certainly grateful to get to know them and help them through this difficult journey that they're on.

[00:26:47] Elizabeth: Have you seen individuals who have gone through the RISE program, have any of them appeared before you in court again? Or do you feel like there's a very high success rate with them going on to be able to have a good life?

[00:27:03] Judge Ron Cable: I will tell you the ones that have finished, I believe, they still reach out to us and occasionally come to the session and they're doing fine. Do all of them that start finish. No. It's difficult.

[00:27:14] It's almost like a cycle. I would almost compare it to the cycle of domestic violence. It takes a number of times for some people to really, pull away and try to work on themselves and address their trauma. We have a couple of women that are in our program now that are doing well, and this is maybe their third or fourth attempt.

[00:27:34] So we never abandoned them. They're always welcome to come back and they know that. So if they leave, they might be on warrant status because they're still involved with the court. They're always welcome to show up. I withdraw the warrant and we'll pick up where we left off.

[00:27:48] Elizabeth: Wow. That's amazing. Is it difficult for you as a judge?

[00:27:53] Judge Ron Cable: I will say I've saw a lot, in my life, especially, as a judge and in my legal career. And I will say that when you talk about survivors, this is the most resilient group of people that I've ever worked with. Just everything that they've had to go through, somehow, they still have a sense of humor and they still have somewhat of a little bit of a positive outlook on things from time to time. And they come in and talk about their day and, they're just a really impressive group of people. And I wish I could go back and change everything that's happened to them, but I'm not able to do that.

[00:28:27] So all that we can do is kind of work on the future together. And I don't think it's difficult. I think this is probably, it's some of, to hear some of their stories isn't easy, but I think that this is one of the, it's like almost like a gift to me to be able to do this program and the people I've met and, just the way I've been educated through them. I'm fortunate to be able to be the judge of RISE.

[00:28:52] Elizabeth: That's incredible. We are just about at the end of our time, but I know just listening to you, I've always believed that there are more good people in the world than bad, that there will always be people there who won't give up on you and that you can find your family, if you're not blessed by being born into one. And I feel like today all three of you have certainly proved that my belief is founded and that it's true. And I so appreciate, just, the very patient and compassionate, work that you do. And that you try to, these experiences that you try to create. I would just like to give each of you the opportunity if there was something that you would like to share that you feel would be helpful to maybe someone who is being trafficked or who is going through difficult time right now, that you feel like we've missed.

[00:29:51] I would love for you to say what you feel is important for them to hear.

[00:29:55] Judge Ron Cable: I would just like to say that everybody's journey is different and can empathize how difficult it is, for people who are out there that are being taken advantage of that way.

[00:30:05] And they truly are survivors. I would like to say to them that there are so many agencies and resources, like I said before, that want to help. And if they don't feel like they could find that the agencies or resources in their community, they could call the Akron Municipal Court and ask for my court. Judge Cable's court.

[00:30:24] I don't care if they're all the way across the country, I would connect them to our coordinator who would find them services in the community where they live, we would still try to help. I would just emphasize how important it is to change and to get away because it's a very, very, very, risky position that these survivors are in when they're still involved with their trafficker.

[00:30:47] Elizabeth: Thank you. Thank you.

[00:30:49] Anne: I think for me, I just want anybody who is struggling emotionally, physically, that there are people out there that want to help and can help. And sometimes it's hard to find, but I feel like we at Hope Meadows do really try to put ourselves out there to try to help find them. And I just want people to know me, personally, the reason I wanted to start something like this, like you said, Elizabeth, we all have our own stories, to share mine, different path, but pain to purpose. And I think we all have really amazing talents to give to this world. And I just, my heart bleeds for a lot of these clients that are searching and seeking for help.

[00:31:30] And I want them to know that there's hope and there is healing and they could go on to live beautiful lives.

[00:31:36] Lisa: Yeah, there's no judgment. I think that there's gotta be some fear of being judged. I think to know that there are people that will, won't judge them.

[00:31:44] Elizabeth: Well, thank you, all of you, so much. I stand by what I said. And you are absolutely proof that goodness does exist and that there are people who are out there to help. So if you are struggling and if you go to a police station or you get picked up, say, you want Judge Cable's municipal court to help you out.

[00:32:05] Thank you so much for what you're doing. I know it's not easy. I have a lot of people approach me, just, normally like at the grocery store or out shopping for my kids and, you know, I've certainly heard a lot of stories and it's incredibly difficult to listen to. And imagine the pain that different individuals go through in their life, but it's at the same time, so inspiring to know that there are people like you there, who aren't afraid and who aren't intimidated by these stories of pain and you're there to help them navigate their way through and hopefully get to a better life. So thank you to all three of you, truly, for everything that you do, and thank you to everyone for tuning in today to this episode of Smart Talks, make sure to like and subscribe and catch us on our next episode next week.

[00:32:57] Thank you.