SHOW NOTES

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Watch India’s original show about her experience, Seduced.

Learn more about the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

[00:00:10] I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

[00:00:22] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Smart Talks. I am Elizabeth Smart, and today I have a very special guest with me. Many of you are probably familiar with her, her name's India Oxenberg. She is an American actress who she is, she's so much more than just an American actress, she has done film producing. She's written a book. She is a TV personality. She's an advocate now. She has so fearlessly shared her story and put herself in such a position of vulnerability that, you have to be to do that, to willingly do that, you have to be such a strong person. And so I'm very honored to have her with me today to talk about her experiences and moving on and just how that's affected her and how she sees her life going in the future from here on out.

[00:01:25] So I am so honored and excited to have you. Thank you, India.

[00:01:29] India: Thank you so much, Elizabeth. Thank you for that introduction. I am definitely flattered by you calling me an actress, but I'm not an actress, I am an author and a producer and I help my mother run our foundation which is the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation. So I'm a founding member there. So I've got a couple jobs at this point. I'd say I have multiple jobs, but all very much passion projects. And I actually worked for Stars, the network that produced the series that I also executive produced, which is called Seduced about a survivor's perspective on a high control group that I was involved in called NXIVM.

[00:02:08] Elizabeth: There you have, it she's even more impressive than, than the brief little snippet that I just gave.

[00:02:15] India: No, just to echo. No, but it's funny because I think because my mother is an actress, sometimes people think oh, she must be an actress too, because I did a tiny bit of acting when I was a young kid, but I realized really soon that I loved being behind the camera and also part of the production process, because there was so much more control. And I didn't like being at the whim of somebody deciding if I was worth the role or not. I was like, wait a minute. I don't think that acting thing is really for me

[00:02:44] Elizabeth: Well, I think you can clam it all.

[00:02:46] India: I'll take it

[00:02:47] Elizabeth: You claim wherever you want to claim, like you own it. If, if you feel like adding it to your what are they called?

[00:02:54] India: My bio?

[00:02:55] Elizabeth: Yes, your bio. Thank you. I have been struggling all day. I can hardly string two words together, but I was just

[00:03:03] India: going

[00:03:03] Elizabeth: to say,

[00:03:03] India: Well, if you're a mother too...

[00:03:05] Elizabeth: if you feel like adding that into your bio, you add in, if you feel like no, then that's fine.

[00:03:12] India: Okay, fair enough.

[00:03:13] Elizabeth: No, so I, yes, I am so excited to have you in conversation today because I feel like you've experienced actually details, absolutely details and depth are different for everyone, but you've experienced what a lot of survivors when victims have experienced and are still experiencing in the realm of manipulation and grooming.

[00:03:40] First of all, I just stand in awe of you for being so open and vulnerable about talking about it and sharing it and writing your memoir. And actually just to take a second on your memoir I loved the title of it.

[00:03:53] India: Thank you.

[00:03:54] Elizabeth: Still Learning. That is, hopefully we're always still learning, but I just appreciated that right from right out of the gate. Like just how open you are about everything, Still Learning. I'm still learning. So I love that.

[00:04:09] India: Tell me about it.

[00:04:10] Elizabeth: So don't mind that little tangent.

[00:04:13] India: But no, no, it was really important for me. I didn't even, I'm dyslexic. And so like I grew up with having this stigma around being someone who had a learning disability like that there was something wrong with my brain because of the way that I thought, or the way that I processed information. And so for me, I never in my wildest dreams thought that I could be an author, but it was always one of my childhood dreams to be a writer and a producer.

[00:04:37] Ironically, I've been able to achieve those things with a lot of hard work, but the book was my first introduction to really deep healing because it was private and it felt safe. And I had just, finished a nine month stint working with the FBI regarding the cult that I was in and then putting away my main abuser for 120 years with a lot of help, especially

[00:05:03] Elizabeth: Congratulations, by the way.

[00:05:05] India: Yeah. I know, that we feel very proud of .

[00:05:08] Elizabeth: I, I would feel very proud of, I feel proud of it for you.

[00:05:12] India: Thank you. It's a win for all of us, I think, because it just means that there's one more predator who's off the streets.

[00:05:18] Which I think is really important. But I wasn't ready to talk about my experiences for a really long time. And it was very scary for me because every time that I would talk about it, I would go right into activated trauma without even realizing what was going on for me. And it was so disturbing because I'm somebody who really loves to be able to figure things out.

[00:05:39] So to not have access to my own mind with clarity, let alone, what I was feeling was very hard. And it sent me into a state of psychosis for a while, because I wasn't able to really grasp what was going on in reality, because the PTSD was so bad. And I know that you can probably relate to that, or you've definitely talked to a lot of survivors who have, and I know personally that you I'm sure you have too, but it's just, it's so difficult when it's happening to you and you don't know why it's happening to you.

[00:06:12] So it's the writing process allowed me to just crack into my own thoughts without the disturbance of the indoctrination, if that makes sense, because it was private and it was safe. And I was like, well, if I can write about it, then I still won't get in trouble. Like I was still kind of fighting with the groom, with the indoctrination and the grooming that had conditioned me to think that if I spoke out about these things that bad things would happen to me, my family members and the people that I love most and that they would ultimately try to destroy me. So I was like going against that, but it was almost like two steps forward, one step back, and I would be like writing, and then at night I would have flashbacks and memories and I wouldn't be able to sleep.

[00:06:51] And so then I would continue to write and more memory retrieval just kept coming up. But then I was like, with these memories comes this pain and this like atrocious amount of what feels like crazy making in your own mind, because you're trying to reconcile between what you've been told was your life versus what you actually experienced and your body does not forget.

[00:07:14] Elizabeth: No, no it doesn't. And actually even to this day for me, because, cuz this is what I do. And even when I got to the grocery store, I'll have people approach me or disclose to me. So this is very much a part of like a daily occurrence in my life, a daily part of my life, but so then when it comes time for me to listen to it, listen to an audio book, or read a book, or watch TV in the evening, I am probably the most boring person to watch TV with, or read a book with, cuz I'm like, what's happy? What is always happy? Or what, like what is light? I don't want,

[00:07:58] India: I wanna watch cartoons!

[00:08:00] Elizabeth: You know, oh, oh, look at that. There's a new season of the British Bake Off coming out again. Oh, watch that for the thousandth time!

[00:08:07] India: You're preaching the choir or, you know, and I I'll have friends suggest, like for instance, there's a new show on Apple called Severance, which is really creepy and kind of culty. And my, a friend, many friends were like, you should watch Severance, you should watch Severance.

[00:08:23] And I was like, I had to wait cuz I needed four cartoons at night before I was ready for Severance and I watched Luck, which was adorable with the little girl in the cat. And I was like, this is way more my speed. And then my sisters and my mom convinced me to watch Severance finally. And I was like, guys, do you realize I avoid shows like this because I lived this life of true crime?

[00:08:46] Elizabeth: No, it's true. It's true. I remember after I got home from being kidnapped Finding Nemo came out shortly after and so I went with a group of friends to go see, Finding Nemo, cuz it's, it's like cartoony, oh yeah, I'll be great. And then I went and I saw it and I mean, it was fine.

[00:09:03] Like I didn't break down and cry, but everyone came out and they're like, oh, I loved it. It was so cute. And I came out and I was like, I hated that. That was terrible. It made kidnapping look like it's fun. Like you're gonna go and you're gonna go on adventure and you're gonna make all these cool new friends. And it's just so easy to escape. You just flush yourself down the toilet and you get, and you escape and you get right back to your dad in the ocean. I was like, that's not how at all.

[00:09:26] India: That's bullshit.

[00:09:27] Elizabeth: Exactly.

[00:09:29] India: You're like that, that Nemo is traumatized. Let me tell you!

[00:09:33] Elizabeth: So, no, I definitely understand what you're saying. And then when it comes to like true crime documentaries, cuz my husband, he likes watching them these days and every now and then, like maybe once every like six months, maybe once a year, I'll watch one with him. And then I'm like, yeah, I'm good now for a while. But he's like Elizabeth, there's this one.

[00:09:55] There's this. I can't even think of what they're called, cause I don't even watch him with him. Cause I'm like, no, that's okay. I'll just read my book.

[00:10:02] India: Yeah, it's fine. and now, because of my job with Stars, which is the documentary department, I actually have to watch them for work. So I like have to put my work hat on and be like, okay, compartmentalize now, and just focus on this for work.

[00:10:16] And then you can go back to your life of lightness because I definitely need that balance for my own personal mental health. Like I just don't need to be bombarded with constant sadness, because like you, I look at my Instagram and I have messages every day from people who are like, I'm in a high control group, or I was in a group just like DOS or I was being raped since I was nine years old.

[00:10:40] And I'm just like, it's so heavy and it's so personal. And I feel like a personal obligation to respond and be like, "Hey, I hear you. I see you. How can I help?" But there's only so much that one person can do. That's partly why my mom and are so adamant on growing our foundation is because we want to be able to have a space, a digital platform and an actual brick and mortar center that we're building.

[00:11:04] Elizabeth: Well, tell me a little bit about, about the foundation.

[00:11:08] India: It started off, this is weird, but my mom started it while I was actually in the cult and it was focused on human trafficking before she even knew what was going on with me in NXIVM. So like, that's also a strange part of the origin story of the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation.

[00:11:26] But then as she was becoming more aggressive on exposing NXIVM, more and more people started to leave, but they needed help because they were not well, and they were not in a good head space, you know, to say the least, they had been brainwashed and into believing that what they were doing was good and now they needed therapy.

[00:11:45] And so she pivoted and created relationships with therapists who would offer discount therapy to people coming out of the cult. And then she would cover the remainder of the cost with donations. And that lasted for a while. And I was one of the last people out in some ways. And so she continued to do that for a while.

[00:12:07] And then when I started to focus more on my healing, we started working together on recovery and just basically everything that it takes to get your brain back and also to deprogram myself, which was really extensive and took many years to kind of feel like I had one, my own thoughts and that I was in control of my own thoughts again, and that I wasn't in this kind of up and down of manic depressive anxiety cycle that I had been in coming out of the cult, because that was so hard to just reenter reality after seven years of living a certain lifestyle.

[00:12:46] And so we started to, my mom is a really great student. So she started to study everything and all that she could in order to help me and there wasn't anywhere for me to go really. And I kept saying to her, like, can you please just send me somewhere? Like I'm, I was so suicidal and I just didn't want to live. And I was feeling really low and I didn't recognize myself when I would look at myself in the mirror. And that was really disturbing and triggering. Cuz when I would see my own eyes, I didn't feel me like I had when I was a little kid. And there wasn't anywhere for her to send me really there wasn't like a rehab for how to un-brainwash yourself or how to recover from high control groups or indoctrination.

[00:13:27] So we went on in a more alternative route, which included a multitude of different type of therapies including a lot of psychedelic assisted therapy work, which has been, and has become like the emphasis of what the Catherine Oxenberg Foundation provides. And so really our focus is trauma recovery, but specifically for victims of sexual violence and veterans and really specifically to do with PTSD because there's not a lot out there. And I even remember people wanting to prescribe me antidepressants, which I'm not against medicine, but I just knew that wasn't for me, because my memory had been so tampered with. And they said that one of the side effects would be more memory problems potentially. And I was like, I can't afford that.

[00:14:14] I can't afford to do anything more to my brain. Like I have to be careful with this. I'm in a really fragile state and I don't want to lose a potential recovery. So I went in the alternative direction and, and it's really benefited me in the long run because I feel like I finally have myself back, but I fought really hard and like I used whatever tools I could, whether it was yoga or dance or singing or meditation or books, like knowledge therapy really helps, therapy, talk therapy when I was ready because I was not ready for a long time for talk therapy, cuz it was too triggering.

[00:14:51] It just reminded me of NXIVM and I was like, I don't trust you. I'm not ready. And so I've had to also learn to respect my own pace and to not let other people's judgements determine whether or not I'm doing my journey right or not. And I'm doing air quotes right now because I feel like everyone's like, why don't you just get over it?

[00:15:12] I don't like, I don't understand what's wrong. Like, can't you just stop thinking about it? And you're like, no, that's not really how it works. That's not how trauma works at all. I can..

[00:15:22] Elizabeth: I don't think that's how anything works. I mean like,

[00:15:25] India: No!

[00:15:25] Elizabeth: Even like the stupidest example that I can think of in my own life is if I have an early morning flight and I have to get up super, super early to, to make sure I get to the airport on time and get on the plane, I will wake up every half hour because I can't stop thinking about it.

[00:15:42] And because I think, oh, I'm gonna miss, I've never missed a flight, I've never slept through my alarm clock ever, but I have an irrational fear and I can't stop thinking that. So then I end up basically not sleeping or waking up every 30 minutes every hour until it's time for me to get up and go. Easier said, yeah, than done.

[00:16:03] India: Totally easier said than done is the, is that in a nutshell.

[00:16:07] And so I just remember feeling really frustrated with myself for a long time that I wasn't where I wanted to be. And I didn't feel the way that I wanted to feel. And then I was like, you know what? This is all for me. Like everything that I'm doing when it comes to my recovery is for me and my own wellbeing, but really what's helped me the most is helping other people, because I think helping leads to healing and like mentoring other women who have also come out of cults and mentoring women who want to also tell their stories and like making them feel empowered and also reminding them that the only way to have recovery, like you don't have to put yourself out there. You don't have to open up for them to nitpick and scrutinize or accept, whatever. Whatever happens. But it was my way out because I was already put into the media, and I think you could definitely relate to this. I didn't really have a choice, whether people knew me as India Oxenberg or Jane DOE, many of the other women, I was out there and I was already associated to NXIVM.

[00:17:08] If you Googled me, you would look me up and people would be like, oh, branded sex slave. And I was like, that's not me. I was like, that's just like what happened to me. And so I was feeling so frustrated that I had to explain to people who I really was, that I just started talking about it. And I just started talking about coercion, talking about the red flags, talking about gas lighting and being like, if you understand the process of indoctrination, you will understand how this could have been anybody.

[00:17:34] And that it was

[00:17:35] Elizabeth: Absolutely.

[00:17:35] India: Right place, right time, vulnerabilities that I was already predisposed to, and everybody has 'em. So like, that was kind of like my way out to not feel like I had to run away to the woods and disappear and, you know, change my name , which is what I was feeling for a while.

[00:17:52] Elizabeth: Which I think is a temptation for probably everyone who's ever been unwillingly in the spotlight.

[00:17:58] India: Totally. You were so young, I just don't even know what that would've been like as a child. I was, in my late twenties.

[00:18:05] Elizabeth: I mean, because I was a child, my parents, they did try, they did everything they could to, to protect me. But it definitely was very different than I, I mean, my life today is very different than I ever thought it would be.

[00:18:20] I wouldn't say it's, it's worse. I'd just say it's, it's different. You know, there's been a lot of really incredible experiences I've had that I would not have had. I definitely would not have had, you know, had I not been kidnapped, for whatever reason my story not been, plastered all over the media.

[00:18:38] So, I mean, I guess there's a silver lining there. I wouldn't be in this position that I am, um, had it not happened. I mean, wouldn't say that like, I'd love for it to happen to me again that I'd never say that, but I'm

[00:18:52] India: No same.

[00:18:53] Elizabeth: I'm grateful for the opportunities that it's allowed me to have since then.

[00:18:58] India: But I think that's tribute to, actually post traumatic growth because now you get to look back at your trauma and your experiences and be like, wow, this really changed me. But it also changed me for the better, because now I know, my know a lot more than I did before. I didn't even have it. Like, I was so used to just people deciding what was right for me that I didn't even really take the time to get to know myself in a deep way.

[00:19:24] And so I think these past four years have been about that for me, just like getting to know what India wants and what India likes and what makes me happy and what, what passions fuel me. And also that my circle of friends are a lot smaller than I thought.

[00:19:39] And I, I was forced to have like so many friends and collaborate with so many people and I'm an introvert. And I was like, this is too much. And I realized, like, that's not how I live my life. I love my family, my husband, my cats. My couple of friends and then colleagues, I'm like, that's it. I don't need hundreds and hundreds of friends. But it's also nice to be able to have access and to have a platform where you can actually talk about things that other people could relate to.

[00:20:07] And then you can like take away some of the shame and open up a conversation that's usually really uncomfortable for people, like nobody wants to talk about eating disorders or rape or branding or any, child abuse, whatever it is. But like, if it can be more of a peer to peer, like what we're doing here, I think it's so important.

[00:20:26] And it's been so helpful for me to just connect with other people who have had similar experiences, it makes me feel less alone.

[00:20:34] Elizabeth: Well, and I think you just hit the now on the head that, by sharing your story, you are making such an impact by helping others to know that they're not alone.

[00:20:43] And that the feelings that they're feeling are not, they're not crazy. Those are normal, natural feelings to be feeling after you've experienced something of that magnitude. And, and I, I'm just so grateful for you for being willing to do that.

[00:20:58] And so I, if I would never ask you to share something you don't wanna share. I'd hope you'd tell me no, I, because I would respect that. But if you don't mind, if you feel like you are in a place where you would be willing to share just a little bit about how you were introduced into NXIVM and how it came about, and then a brief moment of what it was like to be a part of it, and then your final, finally, like reclaiming of yourself, reclaiming your life back. I just feel like that would be, yeah, so impactful.

[00:21:33] India: Yeah. I'll give it a go. So it started, I was introduced to NXIVM when I was 19 years old and it came to my mom and I through a trusted friend. And it was one of those friends that kind of refers you to everything like, oh, you should go to this restaurant or you should watch this movie.

[00:21:51] And so like, you don't always do your due diligence when you have that friend. You're just like, okay, like I trust this person. Let me check it out. And it was kind of one of those situations where we were invited to an intro presentation that was being held not that far from where my mom lived at the time.

[00:22:07] And so I asked my mom if she would go with me and we went and we saw this intro presentation and I was at a pretty transitional time of, in my life. I was 19 and I had just left my first year of university, which I didn't like for a number of reasons. I just wanted to work. And I felt like I was limited by my own beliefs about myself and my capacity.

[00:22:29] Like I said I grew up with a learning disability and I grew up with a famous mom who like, knew what she wanted to do when she was 13 years old. And here I was kind of like fumbling around as a production assistant, trying to find my way in the great big world and thinking that I should be somewhere that I wasn't.

[00:22:45] And I was looking for something, but at the same time, I was also susceptible to other people's influence because I was so open and trusting. And I hadn't really lived that hard of a life. Like I, I had, my family of origin was difficult at times, it was a blended family with a lot of chaos.

[00:23:03] And unfortunately some mental illness that made things challenging. And I had a dad that was in prison for the first seven years of my life. So I think there was a lot of things that I hadn't really reconciled with, but I was trying to bypass them and just like jump straight into having her career.

[00:23:19] But the pitch that they gave at NXIVM. Sorry, they didn't call it NXIVM. Let's go back. They called it ESP, which is Executive Success Programs. That was their like consumer front product where they're like, here are these amazing courses that are gonna help you become the CEO of your life. And like, you're, it's gonna be a practical MBA that you can apply to anything you wanna do.

[00:23:41] And I was like, ooh. That sounds interesting. Like, I don't mind that. I, I'm looking for skills. Like here I am 19 year old, me looking for skills to move forward. And my mom was less interested. She was a mom at the time. She was taking a break from her career, but she was very intrigued that I was so adamant on doing something because I was wandering, like I said. So I said, will you do this with me? And she agreed to do their first intro course, which was five days. And they held it here in Venice, California, and I took it and I really liked it. And I remember feeling very engaged and I didn't really notice any like major red flags in the first five days, but now looking back and knowing what I know now, I definitely do.

[00:24:33] Like, there's so many things that if I would've walked into that room now, I would've been like, this is a cult. But you just, like, you just don't know what you don't know. And that was where I was, and I was really convinced strongly that I should go and pursue the coaching path that they had.

[00:24:52] And they tried to get my mom and my mom was like, no thanks. But I was feeling kind of excited. And I, I was feeling like I was being welcomed into a group of these people who kept claiming that they were humanitarians that were trying to do good in the world, that they were trying to help people. And I was like, well, I like those things. So maybe this is a good fit for me.

[00:25:11] And I'll give this a go and see if it's kind of like a mentorship. So it started, and I remember kind of feeling like I had one foot in one foot out for the first couple of years and it wasn't until I was 21, so I guess like a year and a half in, that they really sunk their claws into me. And I felt a lot of pressure and a lot of guilt to not leave the organization.

[00:25:30] And, and they were saying like, if you leave, you will not grow. So they were basically using my values against me to keep me there. And, and also I was developing friendships, or seemingly friendships, with people that I thought were successful and I wanted to model myself after them.

[00:25:47] And so I, I was there for seven years in total. The first couple were not as dedicated, but then as I became to, as I began to become more indoctrinated, I did start to change. And people around me started to notice the change, but I didn't. I thought I was changing for the better, but really I was becoming very disconnected and I was isolating myself from all of my prior relationships.

[00:26:13] And the only times I related with people was because they forced us to enroll and recruit people. So I started to tap into my own network just to use them as like ways for me to excel in the company. And that made me feel really bad, but I didn't understand that bad feeling I was feeling was because I was doing something that was against my values, because I was being convinced and gaslit into thinking that the only reason that you're feeling bad about this is because you're not good at it. And you're not achieving the goals, which is to enroll people. And I was like, God, I really suck at enrolling. I must be like the worst salesperson in the world, but really I was selling snake oil in a lot of ways. And they. Had convinced me that I was selling them the greatest tool on earth that was gonna change their life.

[00:26:58] And that's really what they had everyone kind of promoting in different ways. And it was sad because looking back, I have a lot more sympathy for myself, but there have been times in my recovery where I was like, wow, your friends are never gonna trust you again. Like they're never gonna believe you. They're never gonna think that what you're saying is truthful because you just spent so many years, lying, cuz it looks like a lie on the outside, but it was really like a script and like brainwashing is something that's hard for people to understand. And I don't really like using the word brainwashing that much because I think people sensationalize it and they think that it's very sci-fi, and I'm like, no, like programming is a real thing.

[00:27:43] Elizabeth: Manipulation.

[00:27:45] India: Exactly. And it's repetitive manipulation that literally changing the way that you think about the world and about yourself to the point where you feel like you have no power and that your only power is in pleasing that one person or that one group. And I think what I've had to realize about my recovery from the experiences in NXIVM is very much like someone who's experienced domestic abuse because it doesn't have to, you could have a cult of one, it doesn't have to be a cult of, you know, many with one leadership. The same kind of psychological damage or effects on a person is the same as, the woman who's trying to leave her husband who can't.

[00:28:28] And so like I've had to really deeply recognize that place in myself that was that, in order to heal more deeply or else, I was just gonna forever think that I was foolish and stupid and naive.

[00:28:40] Cut to five years into being a very dedicated coach on the coaching path. And I was feeling really low and really depressed. I think I, it was around the time I was 24 years old and Allison Mack approached me about this group within the group that was specifically for women to have "boy training." I remember her telling me that. And that it was something to, yeah, I know creepy, but it, and that it was gonna be the thing that was going to push me past my comfort zone so that I could really grow because that everyone in NXIVM was just floating around, taking the easy route and that if I chose this, it would close, she literally said this, close the back door so that you had no option but to grow.

[00:29:28] And I was like, that sounds cool. Like literally that's the, that was the mindset that I was in, that I was feeling so vulnerable, and on the hamster wheel that they had me on, which was not allowing me to actually succeed because they were controlling the, the measurement tools and deciding whether I grew or not, and telling me that it was based on merit when really it was arbitrary.

[00:29:52] So I said yes to her. And in me saying yes to participating in this top secret group, I had to provide collateral, which is ultimately blackmail, that would be damaging to me and damaging to the people that I love most. That isn't something that like a normal person off the street would be willing to give, but we're talking about five years of grooming and indoctrination that led me to believe that this decision was for my best benefit. And that they were saying that the collateral was gonna be there so that I wouldn't back out on my word.

[00:30:28] That's the way that they described it. I was thinking, well, maybe I could use this extra kick in the pants. Like maybe this is the thing that I need to grow because I've been here for so many years and I'm just not excelling in the way that I would like to. And that led me to, a series of other collateral-type requirements from Allison that also included a "seduction assignment," which I had no idea that Keith Raniere was even involved in this inner group because she kept telling me it's only women with women. It's only like women coaching women to be stronger. So like my mind deleted Keith in a way, because I didn't really have much of a relationship with him until I was brought into DOS, which was the cult within the cult. That was very much just subjugating women.

[00:31:15] So for me, he was like the principal, like, why would you know, why would the principal be involved in this? Like, that's how I was thinking. And then as I started to become more indoctrinated into DOS and I had to fill, fulfill those requirements, which were really intense, I started to kind of get a feeling that he was involved, but we weren't allowed to ask questions and we weren't allowed to really say no to anything.

[00:31:40] So if she said, you must do this "seduction assignment," I would have to complete it. And any kind of pushback would result in a punishment towards me or the other people who were in my group. So it was a really much like it was it's invisible chains and like that is so difficult to describe to someone.

[00:31:59] That it was actually infuriating to me at times when I was coming out of the cult, because people would say, why didn't you just leave? Why didn't you just leave? And I'd be like, you don't get it. Like I couldn't leave.

[00:32:11] Elizabeth: You're absolutely right. And actually like when people, I mean, people have said the same thing to me, but any, like, why didn't you just run away? You weren't that far, blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, okay, you don't understand, like I have experienced physical chains. Like I was physically chained up, but there came a point when they took those physical chains off me. But because they had told me for so long that they would kill me, they'd kill my family.

[00:32:35] That, and everything that they had threatened me with us far, like they followed through with. So I absolutely believed 'em. So that, to the point that to this day, I will, I will still stand by what I have said before, which is that those invisible chains are so much stronger than any physical chain that you can ever be wrapped up in.

[00:32:56] I mean, I support you 100% in that India.

[00:32:59] India: Thank you. Thank you for that, because that was something I remember even I after I had left and I left Albany and I went to New York city to try and get a job when all the NXIVM stuff was crashing and burning. I was trying to get a job because it was like the only thing that I felt like I could have control over in my life that I was like, maybe they won't take this from me because everything in my life seemed to be falling apart.

[00:33:22] And I didn't have a relationship with my mom at that time because they had done, just extensive parental alienation and just made her into the devil basically. And so I was scared to even communicate with my mom, like that's how much they had brainwashed me. And like the very person that I needed was the very person that I was terrified to even be in her presence. Like I would start shaking.

[00:33:48] Elizabeth: Well, and that's what I mean. That's exactly what grooming and perpetrators do. Predators do. They cut off your relationships. They isolate you. They make it so that they are the only one you can depend on. I mean, this is common.

[00:34:02] This is not, for those of you listening. Like what she is explaining right now, her experience is not like an isolated experience. Yes, her exact story, is unique to her, but what she's explaining happens to so many victims out there, this is not uncommon.

[00:34:22] Sorry. I just,

[00:34:24] India: I know, I love, I love that you added that because that's been huge for me. And like talk about knowledge therapy, understanding indoctrination makes me wanna cry, but like understanding indoctrination and understanding, grooming, and understanding how these predators behave and how they are all the same and that they use the same tricks and they use the same manipulative strategies, that's gonna free you in a lot of ways. Understanding that you are not, it has nothing to do with your competence, with your intelligence, with your ability to understand good or bad, it's that they just know how to manipulate generally good people who have empathy and like the playbook is the playbook.

[00:35:07] And that has also helped me in my own work now, because I can identify when I see something that reminds me of a cult or reminds me of kind of cultic strategies, I can see it, whereas before I couldn't see it at all, I was blind because I didn't know.

[00:35:24] Cut till I was in DOS for several years, and that was very intense. They put us through so many different things and, I wasn't alone in this, but whether it was sleep deprivation, food deprivation, sexual assault, repeated collateral humiliation, the ups and downs were so intense. Like one day, some days Allison would be all over me and she'd be like, "I love you so much. Like never leave me." And then five seconds later, like "you're an entitled little brat. You need to have a penance." Like it was just like living with a crazy person, 24/7 that I became very conditioned to accepting that this was normal.

[00:36:04] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:04] India: And so coming out of a reality like that and reintegrating yourself into people who you have to learn to trust, and that they're good people is really freaking hard, like really hard. I mean, it's taken me so many years just to have the level of intimacy and comfort with my husband that I have now that I did not have when we first started dating.

[00:36:25] And even now I still get triggered, like, full disclosure, like sometimes in an intimacy sense, like he'll touch me in a certain way, and all of a sudden I'll be like, whoa, I'm not here anymore. Like I'm somewhere else. And he'll be like, he'll notice because he, we have like, had a lot of therapy together too, which, which has helped me explain to him what's going on for me sometimes.

[00:36:48] And he'll be like, oh, did you just get triggered? And I'll be like and he's like, do you wanna talk about it? And I'm like, mm-mm, cause like sometimes I just don't wanna go there. You know, I don't wanna say like, oh, you just put your hand across my lower belly, and it reminded me of Keith when he used to touch me. Like, like that is not where I wanna go before we go to bed. I just kind of wanna be like, okay, yes, this happened. I can recognize it now, I'm gonna talk about this in therapy later, but that wasn't the case. Like this has taken an extensive amount of work to get to that point where I can even catalog a trigger. Before I would just get triggered, and I would be lost in a spiral of either like hysterical, crying, or depression, or like just having to cover my ears because I couldn't take any information in, because it would just be overwhelming. So like, it's been a lot and recovery is not pretty. You need to go and dive into the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:37:38] And it's not the either has to do with you. No, that's the crazy part too. Yeah.

[00:37:44] Elizabeth: Yeah. It's not like,

[00:37:45] India: How, no. And like how one thing relates to another and it, it's cool to figure out, but sometimes you just need to give yourself a little grace and be like, okay, I get it. This happens. But I can handle it. And I'm gonna give myself a little moment to metabolize this.

[00:38:08] And then if I can't move on, I've started giving my husband signals. I'll be like, okay, I'm in a red, which means like full blown trauma reactivated. So it's not time to talk because sometimes you don't have the words when you're inactivated trauma, you just don't know what to say. If I'm in a, a yellow, that means like I recognize the trigger.

[00:38:27] I can express it. Maybe we can even talk about it if I'm in the right place. Or I just need a moment for myself to just, let it ride and let it roll out. Cuz sometimes they're just feelings that are just intense emotions that need to. Come through. Or I'm in a green, yes, I've been triggered, but I know this trigger very well. It happens very often and I can get through it.

[00:38:48] But like that was so unconscious to me after all of the cult trauma, because I was so used to living in such high stakes, where every moment was, am I gonna get punished or am I gonna be praised? Or am I gonna get my food taken away from me?

[00:39:04] Or like, what, it was so challenging to predict that you just live in this like unpredictable zone of fear. Which is not my life now.

[00:39:19] Elizabeth: Well, I'm so glad it's not your life and

[00:39:23] India: No, but it's hard to get out of.

[00:39:25] Elizabeth: How did you do it? Those mental chains, they are so strong.

[00:39:30] Like how did you do it?

[00:39:32] India: This is really when things started to change for me. When I started working with the FBI and they started filling in all of the data for me about who this man was, what this cult was, all of the things that they had done to women prior even before I even joined, they were filling in all of this missing history that I didn't have.

[00:39:51] And I was like, wow, this is bad, and I participated in something that was bad, unknowingly. And now what am I gonna do about it? I was like, I gotta talk about it. I gotta share. I need to tell the truth. And I made the truth, like my job, and it was really for me because I needed to get it out.

[00:40:08] And I needed to relieve myself of this world, that I had thought that I was living in and come back to reality and back into my life and outta that one. And I have a lot of will. And I realized like when I set my mind to something similar to my mom, there's no train that will stop us.

[00:40:25] Like, we'll just keep going. So I really trained myself, mentally trained myself, physically trained myself. I started boxing aggressively, and that also changed my life because I started to feel safe with another man and safe with a coach and also safe with my own body. And I was like, damn. I'm strong again, where I had felt very weak for a long time.

[00:40:45] And I didn't feel like I could protect myself. And now I'm walking around the streets and if somebody grabs me, I'll fucking punch the shit outta them. Like I would like, and I never had that feeling of toughness or like security in myself because I was always looking over my shoulder like, oh, who's gonna hurt me now.

[00:41:00] And, also with the psychedelic assisted therapy that has been hugely helpful. But I wrote a book, I made a documentary, I started working with groups like RAINN and becoming more of an advocate for sexual assault survivors and cult survivors. I started just doing anything I could to reprogram myself into the person that I wanted to be.

[00:41:21] And out of that one, and I also have an incredibly loving family that embraced me even with all of their fears and a lot of people who leave cults or leave abusive situations because they've been so isolated and ostracized from their family and friends, they don't have anyone to go back to. They don't have jobs, they don't have careers, and they get sucked back in.

[00:41:43] And so I feel like I'm one of the lucky ones, because I had somewhere safe to go. And also after I left, I moved back in with my mom in Malibu. And then four days later we lost our house to the Woolsey fires. And so, we lost everything. And so that was like one other trauma that compounded on the other trauma, but it also brought my family back together in a way, because we didn't have anything except for each other.

[00:42:07] So it was out of the ashes. I guess we get a fresh start. Talk about silver lining. Silver lining over and over again.

[00:42:16] Elizabeth: Wow.

[00:42:18] India: So it's been a lot. And now I'm, I just moved to Florida with my husband, who's opening a restaurant in the fall in October. So I feel like I'm getting a new start to my life and I get to go back and forth between LA and Florida for my work with my mother and with Stars.

[00:42:35] But I also get to have the reprieve of just living by the beach, riding my bike, like having that balance is really helpful for me.

[00:42:44] Elizabeth: Well, that's great. That sounds, the flight actually sounds terrible between Florida and LA. That sounds, that sounds absolutely terrible. That does not sound even remotely fun to me, but listening to you say, oh, I do my bike. I can go into the beach. I'm like, oh yeah, I could get on board with that.

[00:43:01] India: Yes. And being in a, in the ocean is really healing. And my husband's a very much a water guy who loves these spear fishes and he's always hunting. So it's a nice contrast.

[00:43:13] Elizabeth: Oh, that's so good. I'm so happy for you and I'm so proud of you because you have, you've just you've been through so much, but you've become so strong and like you've just moved so far in your life.

[00:43:29] It's like you should be applauded, absolutely, for everything that you've done. Thank you, just coming on my podcast today and just being so open and vulnerable, because I truly do believe that there are mostly good people in this world, there's just a lack of education.

[00:43:46] And the only way we can educate people is by sharing our experiences. Yes, we can sit and like spout statistics, but if you're like me, or if you are human anyway, you kind of shut down after a little while. But when you're connecting human experience and emotion and understanding to it, and you're able to articulately explain it the way that you have, that is such a service to so many.

[00:44:16] Because I do believe there are more good people in this world than bad, and they don't want to be insensitive, they don't want to be rude, but they also just, they don't know how to react or, it's natural to be curious about things. So it's easy to be like that.

[00:44:30] India: Absolutely.

[00:44:31] Elizabeth: Why didn't you run? But they don't understand how, when you hear, as a surviver or when you hear the words, "why didn't you," you feel like you should have done more. So it's more like "you should have run. You should have screamed, you should have done something different.

[00:44:43] India: Like there's something wrong with you then when that's,

[00:44:45] Elizabeth: I mean, that's not their core intention at all. So I mean like these conversations are so important and I just, I so, so much appreciate the time that you've been willing to share with me, spend with me. And,

[00:44:59] India: Thank you,

[00:44:59] Elizabeth: Honestly, the place of vulnerability that you've gone to, I'll never be able to say thank you enough. I'll never take that for granted because,

[00:45:07] India: mm-hmm

[00:45:07] Elizabeth: This is your life and your life should never be taken lightly. So thank you so much.

[00:45:14] India: So sweet of you. I know I bounced around a lot, but I was really excited to talk to you cuz I feel like you are such a poignant part of my story, even though it was so subtle, the way that we interacted. Like, I, I remember receiving your email and being like, this has gotta be fake. I was like, this can't be real.

[00:45:33] Elizabeth Smart is emailing me. And I was still in the cult when I received your email, and I, I remember sharing it with Kara Claire Broman because I was, forced to basically share any interaction I had with the outside world with them. And she was like, give me that email and then like, that was it.

[00:45:49] And I had no other correspondence with you. And then I remember telling my mom that after I got out and she was like, that was real. I was in contact with Elizabeth. I was the one that told her to reach out to you. I was like, dammit, dammit. But like, you know, right. I guess, right place, wrong time for me. I mean, there was so little anyone could have done to help me get out of it.

[00:46:11] It was like, I was so far in and so thank you for letting me ramble.

[00:46:15] Elizabeth: No, it was, I mean, it's, it on, it seriously was a pleasure. And actually, I don't feel like it was just rambling. I mean, I feel like, I mean, we went places that we, that this conversation needed to go and you brought up points that are so important for everyone to hear, because I mean, if you look in domestic violence, you'll see those same points there. If you look in human trafficking, you'll see those same points. If you look in sexual exploitation, you'll see those same points. I mean, everything brought up...

[00:46:45] India: Even dysfunctional families.

[00:46:46] Elizabeth: Yeah, dysfunctional families. Absolutely.

[00:46:49] India: Right. I mean, just like, it's just varying degrees of everyone, like nobody goes through life unscathed. We all have traumas. We just don't need to be so ashamed of them. Like just that's the, the shame is what I feel like traps you in the prison that is, becomes your mind. And then like you're not free, because you don't feel free. And that's been my drive. I was like, I just wanna be free. Like I wanna be free to express myself as I am. And like, that's my goal. That's my goal all the time.

[00:47:21] Elizabeth: Well, if there's anything else in the future I can ever do for you, like I am here. I'm...

[00:47:27] India: Thank you so much.

[00:47:29] Elizabeth: Like don't, don't hesitate to reach out.

[00:47:32] India: Thank you. I'd love to collaborate with you in the future. And please just keep me informed about what you're doing and if there's anywhere that I can lend my voice and that we can support each other, that would be so great.

[00:47:42] Elizabeth: I hope you don't come to regret that.

[00:47:45] India: No,

[00:47:45] Elizabeth: I will, I can already think of things I want to ask you for in the future.

[00:47:49] India: No, no, please let's do it. I'm ready. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to, to soar out of this stuff and like really take it to the next level and take our foundation to the next level and just reach more people and talk to students and share my book.

[00:48:03] And do what makes me happy.

[00:48:06] Elizabeth: Good. Well, I hope you do. And I hope you do take

[00:48:09] India: Thank you.

[00:48:09] Elizabeth: Every opportunity in life to be happy because I do think life should be happy. I don't think kids should all be work or it should all be sadness. I think it should be happiness too.

[00:48:18] India: No, I agree.

[00:48:20] Elizabeth: I just wanna say thank you so much, India, you have just been so wonderful to have. You've just been so eloquent in speaking and I think what you've said, how you've talked about, how you've talked about manipulation and grooming and then these turning points in your story, I think it is so helpful for, and it's gonna be so helpful for so many to hear.

[00:48:42] There, this story is, the details are unique to you, but the story, the themes that have happened to you are common and they need to be heard and light needs to be shed on this topic. So I wanna say thank you so much to you and thank you to everyone for tuning in and joining this episode today.

[00:49:01] And I look forward to catching you all next time on our next episode next week. Thanks so much.