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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

[00:00:10] I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

[00:00:22] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am your host Elizabeth. And today I am here with Dr. Erika George. She is an incredibly impressive person. She is the Samuel D. Thurman Professor of Law at the University of Utah's SJ Quinnie College of Law, where she teaches constitutional law, international human rights law, international environmental law, and seminars on corporate citizenship and sustainability.

[00:00:55] And that is really not even scratching the surface of who she is. Just in my day to day contacts, the amount of people who have said, do you know Erika, have you heard of her? Have you met with her? Have you spoken to her? I could write a book on that alone. So as I said, this bio, it is the briefest of brief.

[00:01:16] It's not even scratching the surface of who she is, but I'm really excited to have her today because she has such a incredible insight on, not just law and teaching, but also business. And how do they align with nonprofit and how can we both be impactful? And how can we really make the most of that impact between these two worlds that on one hand seem so aligned and yet on the other hand seem so far apart. So just diving straight in. What have you seen that has been most impactful between the business world and the nonprofit world?

[00:01:58] Erika: Well, thank you so much. That was a wonderful introduction and I'm glad that you're hearing about me. I've heard much about you.

[00:02:05] And I so appreciate the work that you do and your interest in this issue. Because when I first started talking about business and human rights and teaching it, it was my first seminar course that I designed when I was a young, I wanna say baby professor, and a lot of people weren't getting, why are you trying to combine teaching business with teaching human rights? And it really came from what I saw.

[00:02:24] I started actually in business as a commercial lawyer out of law school, but also volunteering and then later working for Human Rights Watch. And when I looked at the kinds of issues they were working on, often a business would be involved for good, or ill. With the power to make significant change, too often for the worse, but also to improve things for communities and people. So I wanted to tip the scales and the balance of better business and improving conditions and ultimately respect for human rights and environmental protection.

[00:02:58] The way that we have impact is asking questions and learning about where our products come from and the ways that they are connected to or contribute to, or cause human rights risks, or create benefits and opportunities.

[00:03:14] And there are more businesses that are interested in having this conversation and conducting in a business in a way that's not just sustainable, which is usually thought about in terms of environmental sustainability, but socially impactful for the better not just the worst. And there are some bad cases out there.

[00:03:33] Elizabeth: Can you give an example of how businesses can affect human rights for better and for worse?

[00:03:39] Erika: Sure. The case that drove me into this area actually was the murder of an environmental activist. This was an activist who lived in Nigeria in a region that is oil rich.

[00:03:52] It's the Niger Delta of Nigeria. And he was an indigenous, ethnic Ogoni person. So his community was a place where it was extraordinarily oil rich. The people were poor and their environment was being damaged. As he started to advocate for the environment, the government at the time was a military dictatorship, didn't do well with dissent. He was a dissenter and ultimately he was tried by a military tribunal. It was a flawed preceding, human rights lawyers around the world were watching this. But really to no avail because ultimately he was executed with nine others. And,

[00:04:26] Elizabeth: just for speaking out, just for saying this isn't okay?

[00:04:28] Erika: At that point in time. Absolutely.

[00:04:30] Elizabeth: Wow.

[00:04:30] Erika: And what was happening in the region? This has been in lawsuits in the United States and the UK and in the Netherlands, Shell Oil was one of the principal companies there. Ultimately the CEO of Shell at the time, I wanna say Sir Nigel. I'm forgetting his name, but ultimately he was having protestors at his home in the UK.

[00:04:49] And this shifted the conversation because usually human rights groups would look to Nigeria and this is a corrupt government and that needs to stop. But they also started to look at what were the conditions that allowed that kind of corruption to continue. And it was determined that business profits, business payments to governments had a significant role in keeping a particular government in power.

[00:05:14] So there were human rights groups trying to disaggregate the corruption, the environmental damage, but mostly this person's murder. This is over 25 years ago now, but it was something that was happening when I was in law school, to date myself. And I just couldn't look away from this case. Because he simply wanted farming and fishing in a clean and healthy environment for his community.

[00:05:38] In their communities, in other countries facing similar challenges. Most of them aren't being executed, but some are, there's an environmental group, Global Witness, that tracks what's happening to environmentalists. So really looking at the human rights issues faced by environmentalists was my introduction to this area. And the extractive industry was intimately connected with that.

[00:06:00] Now the changing part, dare I say the good part, later, as I was researching for my book, I started attending all kinds of forums and conferences. And one is held by the United Nations Working Group on Business and Human Rights. And there was an NGO from Nigeria there, Light Africa, I believe. Also representatives from business. And I'd asked this Nigerian activists, "well, would you want the laws changed?" And he said, well, I want the culture and the leadership change and actually working with the business has actually made me safer, because rather than having military shouting and shooting at me, I can sit down, have a conversation. We can talk about the stakeholders and how they're being affected." So impact is having business leaders who have the foresight to assess what impacts they're having if they're operating in a complicated environment, like a corrupt government.

[00:06:50] The UN Secretary General of Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, was just in China, challenging government to be working with Russia right now, companies are pulling out, challenging governments to be working with. So it takes a lot of courage and competence and consciousness on the part of business leaders to say, you know what, we're not gonna be complicit in violating human rights, or supporting entities that do. So that conversation after the WeWa case, after others, the extractive industry started to get organized around responsible sourcing and voluntary principles on security.

[00:07:27] One of their problems is they would contract with the government and they would provide security for the firm and they would shoot people rather than stop people. Right. So just codes of conduct and ways of engaging. They're consistent with making profit, but doing so in a way that isn't devastating a social group or the environment.

[00:07:48] The environmental challenges remain, but they're interrelated. And these particular cases really got me thinking, you know what I wanna teach about this and I wanna learn more.

[00:07:57] Elizabeth: We hear the term human rights being thrown around a lot these days. I feel like almost in connection to any media event, anything that the media picks up on there is the phrase "human rights" come up.

[00:08:13] And I don't actually know if I've ever had anyone define it for me. I feel like it's always vague, all encompassing kind of term that you could put on anything, but can you define human rights?

[00:08:28] Erika: I will offer the definition that has been given, but that is an excellent question. Truly, it is. The term is used quite liberally, but there is or expansively, but there are defined, recognized human rights. When I'm teaching human rights law, I teach human rights law, I talk about the universal declaration of human rights, which enumerates specific rights and tells you what the substance of them are.

[00:08:52] But we derive rights, some belief from our religious faith, like most religions will respect life or not stealing. So they're basic moral precepts that are universal, whether we're looking at Islam or Buddhism or Christianity or Judaism, so some will anchor human rights and natural law.

[00:09:13] I'm a lawyer I rooted in the law that emerged after one of the world's greatest atrocities. So the human rights movement was extended. I think it was born, it's been around like anti-slavery U.S. anti-slavery movements. I'm doing on tangent so you can see how I lecture

[00:09:29] Elizabeth: it's OK.

[00:09:30] Erika: Mm-hmm um, the core human rights that we look to these days are the ones that came after World War II. This was after the Nazi regime fell and rather than just executing the German regime, we allied powers the US, the UK, held a trial at Nurenberg and that Nurenberg Tribunal was the international community's commitment that we're gonna look to the rule of law, not vengeance to resolve our differences and to ensure that we have a sustained peace moving forward. After that UN institutions were born. And one of the fundamental instruments created include. One of the authors was Eleanor Roosevelt, by the way, was the universal declaration of human rights.

[00:10:10] And when this became an instrument that the international community respected, it listed civil and political rights and socioeconomic and cultural rights. So there's a range of rights and there are enumerated and they're clear and they're in that declaration and they've become codified as law in international treaties.

[00:10:28] So there's a treaty on civil and political rights. And the United States is a member of that treaty. And then there's a treaty on social economic and cultural rights. The United States is not a member of that treaty. That would be things like recognizing a universal right to education or universal right to health.

[00:10:43] The civil and political rights are the right to freedom of expression, the right to consciousness, the right to freedom of religion. So liberties are in the civil and political rights zone. And that's where the United States has really taken stands. And then other more enabling rights, I like to think of the ones that are associated with basic needs that make living as human in our fullest capacity, more difficult are the things associated with economics and culture and being secure.

[00:11:12] Elizabeth: Well, I feel like I need to go back and review world history because honestly I feel like I find history very interesting, but I had no idea. Maybe that was what was taught while I was kidnapped or maybe I just, so I missed it.

[00:11:30] Erika: I didn't get the universal declaration until I got to law school, honestly.

[00:11:34] I mean, I had a bit of World War II history. I went to public schools and this outside, outside of Chicago. So yeah there probably is more we could be doing about universal, international human rights education, and lower grades, but.

[00:11:49] Elizabeth: Well, cuz if we're, If we are using these terms all the time,

[00:11:52] Erika: that's right.

[00:11:52] Elizabeth: We should know how we're defining that. We should actually know what we're saying. That's true. Well, yeah. Anyway, I feel like I need to go research that now and learn more about it.

[00:12:02] Erika: Happy to send resources.

[00:12:04] Elizabeth: Oh, please do. Yeah. I, I would appreciate that actually. Absolutely. Where have you seen success? Where have you seen sort of fruits of your labor, if you will?

[00:12:16] Erika: Okay. Well, not just mine, but I think a range of human rights, activists and concepts, investors, and concerned business leaders. I'm seeing change in businesses trying to better understand and assess the way that they do business might create risks.

[00:12:35] Employees asking questions. One, in the tech sector, google had a project called Dragonfly and it was in involving surveillance and ways of more effectively and efficiently tracking people while online and we can understand why that would be desirable. But this project was being designed apparently for a repressive government, China.

[00:12:57] When the engineers found out what they were designing, they asked questions about it. How was the technology that we're designing, going to be deployed? Is it going to be used in ways that are going to violate rights or be discriminatory? So that conversation internally is changing and I believe the project was paused for a bit.

[00:13:17] The others are one is the Fair Labor Association. That was something that really was driven by youth decades ago, when sweatshop labor was at the foremost part of people's attention, a group of students didn't want their college logo apparel to be made with sweatshop labor. They protested, students at University of Wisconsin were really active in this Notre Dame, other schools, and a Fair Labor Association was formed.

[00:13:43] It's a non governmental, nonprofit involved business like Nike, Adidas, Under Armor, all the big ones. Large universities are large buyers of products, and then civil society organizations that were concerned about labor rights and human rights. And they came up with codes of conduct. They now work on auditing the factories that supply the products to the big brands that are making things with college logos and university members, including the University of Utah, now, when they purchase certified logo goods are sustaining factories that are doing better at protecting their workers. That's another big success. The successes seem to come when different stakeholders come together and work together.

[00:14:26] Elizabeth: You mentioned that a lot of the movements begin or a lot of social justice begins by asking questions. Hindsight is always 20/20. How do you know if you're asking the right questions? Because I feel like, even in this podcast, I guarantee you I'll have this amazing conversation with you. And then if I go back and listen to it, I'll be like, "Elizabeth, why did you not ask this question? How did you miss that? This is such an opportunity. What's wrong with you?" So how do you know if you're asking the right question?

[00:15:00] Erika: Again, a great question. And then don't stop asking questions, right? You get answers, they're iterative. They build on one another. You don't know what you don't know until you find out more. So I don't treat asking questions as a one and done. It's evolving. And the kinds of questions that are being asked are actually educating business on what it is people are interested in. Investors are now asking about climate impacts.

[00:15:27] There were different set of questions a decade ago. Asking the right questions, in a business in human rights context, you wanna ask, where are you sourcing from? Who's involved in making employment decisions?

[00:15:41] I'll take the case of apparel. One of the things they found out is their challenges with forced labor and supply chains and migrant labor. So people will pay fees to recruiters. And the companies found this out by having audits of who's working in our factories. How long, how did they get there? And by knowing more about the conditions of employment and how people are coming to work. They were able to come up with instructions and guidance for people seeking employment.

[00:16:10] You shouldn't ever have to pay for a job. That's not how we do things here. Your documents should never be taken away from you. So there's a bit of a back and forth, but I think the first question to ask, " is there a policy commitment that this company has to protect human rights? Does it have a grievance mechanism, a way to gather information from employees or concerned consumers and to address those?" And it can know and show what its impacts are on the environment and the surrounding communities.

[00:16:42] Elizabeth: I actually feel like as I'm sitting here listening to you, I feel like you're explaining or describing so many victims of human trafficking, that from the outside, just look like they're prostitutes, just look like they're and I quote, working girls.

[00:16:58] But, I've met so many where they were like, "oh, I was scouted to come and be a model. And then when I got here, they paid for my plane ticket. They took my passport away. They put me up in this hotel and then they started telling me, well, I have to pay off my plane ticket.

[00:17:13] I have to pay off my hotel and the bills, I could never catch up to the bills and they kept a hold of my passport, so I could never get away." Or then it was, " they kept my child and they said they wouldn't feed my child until I, did what they wanted."

[00:17:28] And then, so that's going through my head on one side. And then when I wrote my first book about what happened to me, I did this podcast with Louis House on School of Greatness. And we were talking about consent and I was saying even yes means no sometimes. And he was like, "Well then how can anyone know if yes is really yes? Like how can you give me an example?"

[00:17:52] And I was like, "okay, if someone's being trafficked and they have the threat of like their child being held over them, or their passport. Or their life, then they're gonna say yes. And he's like, well then how do you know if someone actually means yes." And I wanna be like, well, are you paying them?

[00:18:08] That probably is a red flag right there that it's a no.

[00:18:10] Erika: Right. And that's clearly duress and fraud. Right. And that happens in labor trafficking as well. And some industry sectors are learning more. I'm just trying to be diplomatic or doing better than others on.

[00:18:23] Elizabeth: Where do you think we, as consumers can make the biggest impact?

[00:18:28] Erika: Letting brands know that you value what they are doing or that you are not pleased with what they are not doing or what they're doing.

[00:18:37] So basically this is one of the weakest links. Surprisingly, when I interviewed business, I just finished a book on incorporating rights strategies to advance corporate accountability. And when I talk to the people in business and sustainability and in general legal counsel's offices getting the true sense of a consumer preference is more challenging.

[00:18:59] So, so, for example, I was talking about cocoa supply chains and slave labor and west African cocoa plantations. And one of the people I interviewed observed that less than 10% of their consumers probably cared where a Kit Kat bar came from. But what did matter were what the leadership thought, what the board thought, somebody on the board's wife was in UNICEF or very deeply involved. What the investors thought.

[00:19:23] So being able to get messages to large business will take many voices. So the more consumer questions they have. Actually, you're seeing a lot with social media, somebody sending a tweet about how annoyed they were about a customer service dispute will pretty quickly get a response from a business.

[00:19:43] The trick is to have sustained response and change the way of doing business so that it's respecting rights more generally, that's only gonna happen when enough consumers and investors start to state what their preferences are and ask what businesses are doing to ensure that they aren't part of a problem.

[00:20:03] Elizabeth: So when a company has certified B Corp.

[00:20:06] Erika: Yeah.

[00:20:07] Elizabeth: What does that mean?

[00:20:08] Erika: Okay. I'm such a, B Corp fan . Um, I write about this in my book as well. This is a relatively new form of business organization. Most corporations, all, yeah, most corporations are creatures of state law. Their legal fictions, most are incorporated in Delaware.

[00:20:24] And you form your business enterprise to make profits, but a business that's a B Corp Certified is a relatively new form of organizing that lets the company not just listen to shareholders and make profits for shareholders, but to have a broader social concern for other things that employees or the CEO may hold important.

[00:20:50] I did learn that the Malouf Corporation was a B Corp and I was so excited. But Utah has a B Corp statute. So you can incorporate your business as a benefit corporation here. B Corp certified is the non-profit that nonprofit that certifies a Benefit Corporation as adhering to the code of conduct and standards that the b certification sets, but I think it's broader than that. I really think of the B Corp as a movement in the way that you might have a social movement. These are usually smaller and middle market entrepreneurs, and then you've got some big ones like Patagonia converted to B Corp and New Belgian Brewery.

[00:21:26] But it gives some space and flexibility to do better. There are these things called shareholder derivative suits. If shareholders don't think you were making enough money or you're mismanaging, you can be sued for not maximizing shareholder profit. Which may mean if you wanna do something that's less than profit maximizing, but maybe socially impactful, you'd have to answer for why did you do that rather than make me as much money as I possibly could. You could say it's in my business judgment and, otherwise if you're a B Corp, you reset expectations in a different way, it's almost resetting our understanding of what the purpose of business is and building into that making life better.

[00:22:08] Elizabeth: Well, this is kind of funny because the first time I ever saw like the term B Corp, I was at Athleta. Oh, I was shopping at Athleta.

[00:22:16] Erika: They are, mm-hmm.

[00:22:17] Elizabeth: Because I live in athleisure.

[00:22:19] Erika: Right.

[00:22:20] Elizabeth: And I remember seeing it, I think it was printed on a bag in there, or it was like on a sticker in the window. And I remember just thinking B Corp don't you wanna be an A Corp?

[00:22:30] Why would you, why would you try to like popularize? I do like, you only got a, B you're like, just above average. Don't you wanna be like way above average?

[00:22:41] Erika: Okay, excellent.

[00:22:41] Elizabeth: That is legitimately what I thought.

[00:22:44] Erika: Yes. Oh, I love it

[00:22:45] Elizabeth: For, yeah, like embarrassingly a long time. And then I don't even know where I began to like, get who told me or how it changed or how I shifted or how it shifted in my brain that no, Elizabeth, it's not like a grade. It's not a graded scale. This is not like A, B, C, but that is genuinely what I first thought when I saw it. And even as I learned more, I still had like a pretty vague understanding of what a, like a B Corporation was or, or is. Now it does seem like when a company is, has that level or has that certification, like, they're very proud of it. Like they wanna show it off. How popular is it? Like in the broad scheme of things? Maybe I'm just going to the right places. I don't know.

[00:23:35] Erika: Yeah, no, it's growing in popularity. It's probably fair to say that it's still kind of niche. I think that could change given the direction of consumer sentiment, particularly among millennials and Gen Z.

[00:23:47] Some of the research that I did and I don't have the citations with me, but those generations tend to care more about a range of things beyond price than say the boomers and I hate to talk in broad generalizations of generations, but there is evidence sufficient to suggest that this would matter to an upcoming class of consumers.

[00:24:12] And to the extent that there's discretionary income or choices to be made, it could well be that this generation of consumers will be choosing with more in mind than just price. And I think new generations of business leaders are thinking beyond just bottom line profits. And when those come together we'll see more B Corporations forming, I believe. I wanna believe.

[00:24:37] Yeah, but I your story is just a cautionary tale on not really getting messaging out to the people who need it. Right?

[00:24:47] Elizabeth: I mean, it might be fair to say that occasionally I live under a rock.

[00:24:51] Erika: No, no, no.

[00:24:52] Elizabeth: That might not be too far from the truth actually. But it is kind of funny now. Mm-hmm, , it's easy to laugh.

[00:24:59] Erika: No, I totally can see it. Yeah. I'm a professor, right? B yeah,

[00:25:03] Elizabeth: I don't want a C.

[00:25:04] Erika: So, yeah.

[00:25:05] Elizabeth: As an individual, how conscious should each of us be as we go out? Yeah. Should we be researching everything?

[00:25:16] Erika: I know that that's not sustainable. and this is one of the challenges. I don't want people to not ask any questions or look at anything just because it becomes overwhelming because it's too much.

[00:25:27] So I think personally, what I might do is decide, I really am concerned about forced labor. So when I am buying footwear and apparel or agricultural products, places where there are risks of forced labor, I might look more closely at that. And maybe my laundry detergent I'll work on next year or later.

[00:25:51] So I think finding ways that your consumer good choices can trend towards good might be a way to start. If on the other hand, I'm deeply involved in technology. I might focus first on figuring out okay, what are the environmental impacts of e-waste and how can I recycle? So I think to the extent we're making individual consumer decisions, making the more informed ones that you can, and then deciding where it is you want to have a targeted impact.

[00:26:26] Beyond that, it's difficult for the individual to do anything alone. So frankly, supporting industry sectors that are trying to do better, supporting people who are making laws about industry, who are trying to advance respect for the natural environment and protection and climate action. So there's things we can do.

[00:26:51] It's hard for me to say, just become a vegetarian, don't drive your SUV and, yeah, sure. But changes do take time in our culture. So I begin with figuring out what your impacts are. Actually, one of the exercises I do with my students is the you've probably seen the carbon counters and the slave counters.

[00:27:12] You can do these online assessments. Some are better than others, but get a sense of what your household impact is. Are there ways that you can reduce your impacts and have outsized ones that are more powerful by persuading, friends, colleagues, others, to do the same? I just came from the law school and there's a public lands event going on.

[00:27:34] And the meal they chose was vegetarian because these are my colleagues who are concerned about the climate, right? That may not be everyone's choice, but maybe you do a meatless Monday. If you want to learn more about human rights, in September, the UN general assembly is usually meeting. All the heads of state have something to say about the state of the world and human rights and their country's place in it.

[00:27:57] We are really well situated as Americans, quite frankly, this is a very powerful country and there is lots we can do to tip the scales in favor of justice, in different places around the world. And our businesses are also global. Facebook is global. There are allegations that Facebook hasn't really regulated content in Myanmar where there's a vertical genocide happening against Rohinga people. So we might ask what's happening? What can be different?

[00:28:23] For people who have disposable income and investments, there is a movement called "as you sow." These are shareholder advocates. Just like in a democracy, we get to vote. Well, not just like, akin to a democracy where we get to vote, if we own shares in a publicly traded company, we can vote those shares if we've got voting shares.

[00:28:42] More proposals are going forward asking shareholders to vote on corporate management and leadership and environmental impacts and assessing what a company is doing and what its impacts are. Having a human rights policy and commitment. Those are the kinds of things that can be done to change corporate governance in ways.

[00:29:00] If you're not in a B Corp, or even if you're in a B Corp, that's publicly traded. So finding ways to leverage the influence that we have as consumers, as investors, as members of our community, can help create some change.

[00:29:15] Elizabeth: How is America doing on that scale?

[00:29:18] Erika: Well, we actually have a Uyghur Forced, Xinjiang Forced Labor Act was passed recently. This is asking businesses to be able to trace if they are sourcing from China, that they are not sourcing from the autonomous Uyghur region. For those who may not be following. This is a region in China that is majority Muslim. And people from the Uyghur community are being held in concentration camps. They are being subject to surveillance, there's discrimination and human rights violations going on. The high commissioner for human rights was just there. Unclear how they're unclear, how much she was able to see because there's a particular image painted, but it's a growing concern. So to the extent that we have trade ties there or commerce conducted, can we do so in ways that are not enabling that kind of abuse to occur.

[00:30:14] The Fair Labor Association, their business members actually have pledged not to source from that region for the reasons that became a problem in Nigeria. If we let governments that are not respecting the rights of their own people persist, and we strengthen them through our funding and our finances, we become part of the problem when we can move towards solution.

[00:30:35] Elizabeth: We've been talking, I feel like on a very large scale for the most part. And I am curious to know what your thoughts are on a smaller, local scale. Like for local businesses say here in Salt Lake City, what can they be doing to be taking steps to be more aware of human rights issues and impacting society for the better.

[00:31:00] Erika: It really depends on the type of business that you are, but one thing that all businesses can do is if you are contracting with suppliers or other businesses, business to business contracts, in them contain provisions that you're both sharing a commitment to avoid doing any harm.

[00:31:19] And to address harms where you can detect them. Right? So if you can assess what are the ways that we are connected to, or contributing to, or maybe causing a problem for someone, what can we do to change that? So there are model contract clauses that the American bar association has been working on, that you can put into your agreements so that you're both going to agree.

[00:31:41] You know what? We're gonna look at problems. We're not gonna look away from them. And then we're going to use the leverage that we do have, whether it's with the smaller supplier, to figure out what the problems or challenges are. Is the problem that we changed that order at the last minute, so then you had to have everybody work unpaid overtime, and then we created the problem? Or is the problem you don't know where you're getting your employees from?

[00:32:03] Because then you kind of cascade around responsibility. So it's not just passing off a problem, but it's being able to assess where one is and address it. Using the resources that exist along the supply chain you may have. We're extraordinarily connected even here in Utah.

[00:32:25] Elizabeth: I feel like you've given me so much to think about. I feel like I need to go home now and find the brands that I use the most and go see where they're from and see if I need to start making different choices.

[00:32:37] Erika: Yes. I actually had students years ago. There's a, oh gosh, I think it's called source map. I don't know that I'm supposed to be, I think it's nonprofit. Sorry,

[00:32:45] Elizabeth: Go ahead!

[00:32:45] Erika: But there was a researcher at MIT and he was putting together a tool that would let you track crowdsource track supply chains to figure out where things are from. And if you wanted to do this level of detail, you probably could get down to the factory level. But I think working to look for certified goods is fine and a good start.

[00:33:07] So going home and doing that, I actually had students name your favorite brand, or look at what's the pin in your purse or the laptop on the table. And we did a little backtrack exercise to figure out if they could find out as much as they could about the products and its component parts that they were working with.

[00:33:24] So, I mean, that's a student exercise.

[00:33:29] Elizabeth: Oh, dear. What am I going to find?

[00:33:31] Erika: Yeah. I think you'd find a lot like one of the things we found is our laptops contain coal tan, and that comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo that's been in conflict for years. This is another, I think, evolving story towards the good, once conflict minerals were identified as being part of a problem of fueling displacement and refugee flows and violence in that region, many governments, the US government was one of them started having reporting requirements so that industry sectors had to say whether or not they knew where their coal, tan and their tin, and their tungsten and their gold, the things that go into electronics, comes from, which then made it possible for industry sectors with more resources and say the government of the Congo to look into where are we getting these minerals and to help clean up that supply chain and source more responsibly.

[00:34:25] So.

[00:34:25] Elizabeth: I, wow. I feel like my mind has just been like, expanded so much. I feel like I'll probably need to come back. and relisten to this and I'll probably have those same thoughts of why didn't I ask this and why didn't I ask that

[00:34:38] Erika: I'm always around, you can ask again.

[00:34:40] Elizabeth: I guess now I have contact with you, I can track you down and ask you.

[00:34:44] Erika: Absolutely. So what's happening are some legal reforms, mostly in Europe, in the United States, we're litigious, so we've had litigation Nestle was sued last year and actually won in the Supreme Court on a slave case. They didn't know, or couldn't really track what was happening.

[00:35:04] And courts here, haven't been willing to hear those cases. But that's a bit late in the process. I really think that focusing on prevention, focusing on helping businesses to understand what consumer demands are, and then working through multi-stakeholder initiatives and groups to address some of the underlying causes.

[00:35:25] Elizabeth: Wow. Well, I think we're about out of time, but I wanna say thank you so much. I feel like I've learned so much just in our brief conversation and I think we can do a lot better. So,

[00:35:39] Erika: I really think we can.

[00:35:40] Elizabeth: Thank you so much for your time. And for coming down here today and chatting with me, it's been just incredible.

[00:35:48] So thank you. And thank you to everyone listening today. Make sure to leave us your comments, give us your feedback and like, or subscribe and catch us next week on our next episode. See you soon.