SHOW NOTES

Visit Dr. Bailey’s website.

Follow Dr. Bailey on Instagram.

Listen to Dr. Bailey, Elizabeth, and Jaycee Dugard’s panel on Appeasement at the Malouf Foundation Summit.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth: You are listening to smart talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community, and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Smart Talks. I am Elizabeth Smart, and today I'm here with someone who I love and have the deepest of respect for we had her on last season and we're having her on again today because I can't say enough good about her. And I have so much respect and admiration for all the work that she's doing, but it is Dr. Rebecca Bailey. She is a leading family psychologist. She is an, a fellow equestrian, which automatically makes her a friend in my inner circle, a best friend. And she has become a world renowned professor teacher. She is a speaker, author, and entrepreneur, and she is just a wonderful human being. And I just feel so lucky to count you in my circle of friends.

So thank you for coming back and chatting with me again.

[00:01:17] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Absolutely. And back at you, Elizabeth, I am in such a support of the message that you're getting out there to the world and the community. Just who you are. You're a ray of sunshine.

[00:01:30] Elizabeth: Oh, you're nice. I love you. So a few months ago we had an opportunity to sit down on stage together and dissect a little bit more about how appeasement is different from Stockholm Syndrome. And I actually, I, this topic just resonates so much with me, probably because I was labeled so much after I was rescued as being someone who had suffered with Stockholm Syndrome. And I would just sit there and think, are you serious? Do do you really think, I love, have you seen what he looks like? Do you know? Why would I love him?

I don't think I'm typically a shallow person, but this man looks evil. He looks like Rasputin. Like he looks scary. He's a scary looking guy. He's an evil looking guy. He's gross old man. And if we were just basing it off of that, that alone I feel was reason for them to think I did not have Stockholm Syndrome, but beyond that, I just remember thinking, I did absolutely everything I did to stay alive. It wasn't because I enjoyed being around them or it was like this really great vacation for nine months where I didn't get to see family, friends, or go to school or move forward in my life.

And I think I so appreciate all this work that you've done on this topic of appeasement, because most people have heard of fight flight or freeze. But not as many people have heard about appease and I just love all this work that you do on appease and how it's this natural instinctual reaction. And I'm hoping if you can just dive right in and talk about what is a appeasement.

[00:03:22] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Absolutely. Basically it's common sense. We have to be so careful with the words that we use with survivors, victims, warriors, whatever we call people that have been through the extreme circumstances or even trafficking. Survivors, et cetera. The words we use are so important. So appeasement really is in the most common sense, the absolute desire and struggle to survive. Human beings want to survive, right?

Mammals that's part of what our push is. And so when we look at the term "appeasement," what we're understanding is how the nervous system can click into a way to, for lack of a better word, soothe the savage beast, right. And, unfortunately in the field the word fawning has taken some legs.

And we do hear sometimes survivors say, oh I fawn to survive, which is basically really a flirting piece. Which, in my perspective and listening to all of you guys and women and men that have been through these extreme, that's not what it is. What it is, is an internal autonomic nervous system that almost clicks in where you're able to be in extreme terror at the same time is access, what we call the vental vagal connection. The part of us that allows us to be social beings. And,

[00:04:52] Elizabeth: That's amazing. And I think for a lot of people who sit and listen, I know even for me, I mean, we can just use my story because I'm not shy. I'm not scared, it's already out there. I don't have any secrets. But I have been approached many times, and so I feel like it's fair to say that it's common for individuals to sit back when they hear a shocking story, a terrible crime, something different and be like, well, if that happened to me, then I would do this.

That would never happen to me. I would've run, I would've screamed. Like it was so long, it was so prolonged. I would've done something different, but the truth is, until you're in that situation you really don't know, you really don't know how you're gonna react. You really don't know what you're going to do next.

And so I think it makes it so helpful to have you here to be able to break down and be like, no, actually this is an instinct kicking in.

[00:05:52] Dr Rebecca Bailey: You get that piece, that kind of clicks in and you don't, it's not conscious, you don't say in that moment, "I better do this for this" your nervous system takes over.

And if you think it, this is all part of Steven Porges's theory. And actually he's very well researched on the vagus nerve and the interaction on the vagus nerve. And so if we think about even this is gonna sound a little tangential, but you know me, if you follow me, we'll get to the point. Going into like an MRI or something like that, people can faint and pass out, no matter how much they wanna go do that piece. So you're about to go into the tube and you're thinking I need to do this cuz you know, my constant headaches or whatever. And then your body just goes, whoop, nope, not, shut down. So we have to understand how much our autonomic nervous system, our body commands then what our brain, from my simplistic perspective, then our brain adds a narrative to it when it's conscious enough to be aware.

So in many of the individuals that I've met with and talked with, including yourself, you, there was a part of you that said, I really want to be kind in the hope that this person is kind. Now there's a woman that I met at the summit we did. And I think it, Kara, who talked, talked.

[00:07:18] Elizabeth: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Sorry. Yeah, it's a terrible pronunciation. She talked about within the first 10 minutes, she realized that she needed to climb up on the sofa and talk to this perpetrator in the hopes that she could help herself stay alive. But she talks about it as an unconscious process. And I've heard that over and over. There, of course, when one thing we don't want to shame anybody or blame anybody. I know, myself, before I had the incredible gift of meeting all you amazing women and men, I prob, I might have now, you're right. I don't know for sure.

I might have fought like a cat. I might've, that's what I think. I don't know if that's true, but that thank, you know, goodness, I haven't had to go through that.

But what I know now is the importance of regulating yourself and staying in a regulated place allows you to at least have an opportunity. Now that doesn't mean that you consciously can control it either.

[00:08:23] Elizabeth: I appreciated what you said right there about, maybe you would fight and actually, through the foundation we have a self-defense program it's called Smart Defense and our director of it, she is, one of the world champions for her weight group in jujitsu.

She is also a survivor, as well. And she will be the first one to tell you, like she's trained and she, honestly, honestly, she could kill me in two seconds. She could take me out so fast, even though I'm like a whole head taller than her. And you think, well, couldn't you just sit on her? No, no, she would take me out. There is no question.

But she would also be the first one to tell you that even though she's trained all of her life, Or for many, many years, and she has reached this top tier level that it could still happen to her tomorrow because you don't always, you don't always stay consciously connected.

And so when you say that that sometimes, your autonomic nervous system just automatically takes over. It supports what she says. It supports, it makes perfect sense to me and it makes it explains why victims do freeze, why we have all those responses.

[00:09:36] Dr Rebecca Bailey: And freeze is a deep terror. It really is. There's a thing called even " voodoo death" where because of the vagus nerve response in absolute terror, people have been known to pass away. That's in our literature and the history. But think about also with cats, this is something so interesting.

Cats can actually die going into, and I don't wanna scare people from taking your cats into vets, but cats that get very, very nervous can actually die going into veterinarian hospitals because of the fear factor.

So again, that's not a conscious thing in your control. It's actually your body taking over these deep, deep terror piece that happens. And there's a thing called the vagal break that gets supplied to slow down the heart rate and all of those things, because the vagus nerve, how it functioned and how it evolved over millions and millions of years, it went from the pure freeze, total shutdown, heart rate goes slow, reserve your resources. Going way, way back. And then you become the fight or flight, the fight, fight or move. And then we developed this ventral vagal, according to Steven Porges, the adaptation of the vagus nerve allowed us to be social animals, to depend on each other, to be together.

And just what I have learned from me, from horses. Not everybody likes horses. I don't understand that, but not everybody. But I get it. Okay. But, or even has access to horses, but what I've learned over the years of riding and not being an exquisite rider, but being a determined rider, I've learned how to control when I'm really scared in my breathing.

Now, in certain circumstances I can't hold onto it in the same way, but I have learned how important it is to really work on regulation. So one of the things we like to say to the whole world out there is a regulated society is a healthy society, which we're very far away from right now, as we know, cuz we're all running around like chickens with our heads cut off.

Sorry.

[00:11:50] Elizabeth: That was all the point there.

[00:11:52] Dr Rebecca Bailey: It was a journey back in my brain. Sorry, Elizabeth.

[00:11:55] Elizabeth: That's okay. So do you find that, or in your research or in Steven Porges's research, does he find that a person who is more regulated is less likely to have their autonomic nervous system take over?

[00:12:13] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Well, it's interesting. No it's different. The autonomic nervous system functions, certainly we do need to, there are skills that can help you get back in your body. Breathing is really important. The one thing we can control is our breathing, but in Porges's research, what we've discussed and talked with him a lot about is his super regulator, which is to be honest, Elizabeth, somebody like you or Jaycee, or some of the other people who've been in extreme circumstances may have this sort of innate super regulator skill.

Now, again, I don't ever want it to sound like somebody that doesn't survive is responsible for their demise. That's not at all what we're saying. But what we're trying to get out there is this understanding and respect for the survival aspects that come in. And what we know is one of the most important things in treatment, at least from my perspective is ridding people of shame and blame.

Helping people when you go into shame, that in my mind, cements that disassociation more than anything. So when I've had people that have worked with me, who've come to work with me and the horses and my team often they come in and they've report extreme disassociation over long periods of time. And part of what I try to do with them is help them get to a place that they understand that disassociation process protected them. Absolutely protected their system from checking out, from shutting down even more. And if we can help them move to a place where they embrace that part of the nervous system and say, thank you. and then begin to become more present back in their body.

It's less scary to be in their body. Does that make sense?

[00:14:12] Elizabeth: Yeah. So, so I have a question. Well, it's actually a question that was asked me and I did my best answer, which I don't actually know how good that was. But last season, we did a Q and A session and people could submit their questions online. We got a question that came in and said it's been, I believe it was a few years now, but since the original trauma had happened, but this woman been raped. While she was raped, she orgasmed. And for years, forever since that, she has dealt with guilt and shame because in her mind it was supposed to be so terrible. And yet, when people are intimate with each other that's usually the goal is to orgasm, but it really halted her from living her life it sounded like.

I don't know who this woman was. It was a question that was sent in. I can't pick up the phone and call her. I don't have her number, anything like that, but I'm just curious to know your thoughts on that situation.

[00:15:18] Dr Rebecca Bailey: I, I adore you. I absolutely adore you for bringing that to light because it's almost like, I mean, my heart is just like, Ugh, it's almost like this secret. Even with little kids who get stimulated, there's this feeling over the years.

I've been, I know it's so hard when you look at me and see how beautifully young I am, but I've been at this work for like 35 years. Right. And over the years, one of the biggest thing, even with little kids has been, when you say to them and, and did your, did your system respond?

Did you have lubrication or something and you don't say it like that, but, and there's always this thing, like how did you know? And your it's so, your body responds. And then even when you look at the, I've worked with a few, unfortunately males who've been molested by priests. That's the thing that they're, they feel so guilty about is like, why did I get an erection?

We can say that about males so much easier than females. So the fact that you're bringing that to light is like why I wanna run around the country and talk with you to a million people to say that's a natural body response. Now it's not everybody, but there was some, and I'm gonna say this and it may not make your podcast, but there was some idiot Congressman or Senator once upon a time that said you can't be raped because your body would shut them out.

Do you remember any.

[00:16:50] Elizabeth: Oh, I remember that. I remember just like screaming into my pillow when I heard that. Cause I was like, how can you be such an idiot? It's, how can you be an office? When you're that big of an idiot?

[00:17:02] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Well, the same type of people that say that an island is gonna sink if you put, build on it, it's like ridiculous.

But this is so important that people understand this. And what bothers me, and I will go in a little rant is a little bit of sort of a misogynistic male based perspective towards victims and survivors. It bothers me. That's why I'm such a big person of get rid of Stockholm. Get rid of the word fawning, come on.

And one of the things I've said, and it seems to resonate often with the men that hear this is you would never say a prisoner war falls in love with his captor. So stop putting perpetrator- based perspectives on women. And we have to challenge it. Somatics are so important. We have to keep saying no, wait a second.

And our bodies respond in a certain way. We are not responsible for the evil or the destruction of these really sick people. It's really important. And the more we say that to each other, male and female, the more we put the onus back on where it belongs, which is on the perpetrator.

[00:18:15] Elizabeth: I mean, it's true. If we wanted to have no rapes left in the world, like for them never to happen, the only way we could do that would be for rapist to stop raping.

[00:18:27] Dr Rebecca Bailey: I was speaking in a Southern state recently. I did trained a bunch of wonderful social workers, and I was mentioning how in another country, if a woman doesn't, there's a certain country, if a woman doesn't fight back, they can't be charged with attempted rape. Well, afterwards, somebody came up to me and said, it's still true in this country. In their state. And it has to do a certain state where there's a lot of sororities with the nicest people in the whole world from this state. But it really shocked me.

[00:18:57] Elizabeth: Wait, there's a state in the U.S. Currently that if you don't fight back, it can't be counted as rape?

[00:19:02] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Don't fight back. You don't fight back in such a visible way, it's not counted as rape. And I was like no way. And the, this friend of mine who was there sent me the case on it, and I was like, are you kidding?

[00:19:15] Elizabeth: How can that even be possible? I did, I had no idea that, if you took that, then that would mean that my captors would not have been charged with rape for 999 out of the thousand times that they raped me.

[00:19:29] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Which, right. Which is where we have to keep making a noise and keep saying here's an alternative perspective. People do disassociate. People do shut down. People do go into a response where there may be an autonomic response that they have no control over. I mean, we know that. But the fact of the matter is that it's still aggression. And I it's, I don't know, I think probably preaching to the choir on this, but where is common sense? Where is common sense in understanding how we treat victims and survivors,? Where, this is where I feel so strongly is, you've taught me so much about your experience. Jaycee has taught me, some of the other people I've worked with have taught me so much about what it took to survive something. And we need to take those messages and say, that's what counts is how you survived this. Not the perspective of the perpetrator on what it was like for you. It's just foul.

[00:20:34] Elizabeth: I just, my mind is still just blown currently. I had no idea.

[00:20:40] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Laws and common sense don't really match. I was recently supporting a young 14 year old who had been raped, pulled off the street at seven in the morning. And I went, went into one of the prelim to be supportive of her prelim trials or whatever they call it.

And she just couldn't remember a lot. And it was just so horrible to see the cross on it. The attorney really challenging that, and it was hard for me to sit there. Because I was like, what do you mean? When the person's like, well, what happened in that moment? And I don't really remember, well, what do you mean you don't remember? It's like, and, and this young woman was also echoing the same thing, I basically just did what I needed to do because I believed I would be let go later. And so what we know when we research hope, which I know you have done and whole book on hope is that we understand that having a sense of agency and control over what we do in some level is very important, right?

So this young lady just clicked into "what do I need to do to get through this situation because then I believe this person will let me go."

[00:21:57] Elizabeth: Wow. I mean, I feel like you and I could sit here and discuss so much of what is wrong with the court system, but for that poor girl, even just recently, I had within the last few years I had a little incident on an airplane where I was inappropriately touched, I reported it, they went and investigated, the us attorney out in Pennsylvania picked it up, ultimately my case, just within the last couple of months they came back and they said we just don't have enough evidence to, to move forward with this case.

And I, on one hand, I have a whole array of emotions on this. Because at first I felt like, is my word not good enough? Is what I said, now I realize, I wasn't raped in this situation, but this was still a violation of my person.

And so it's my word against his word. What makes his word better than my word? And even, we'll just go here for a second where I wanted to be like, I'm Elizabeth Smart, right? Like I am probably one of the most well- known survivors in the United States of kidnapping and sexual violence.

I have spoken out about on this topic for many years now, for well over a decade, closing in on two decades. What makes this person's word against mine? Like I have a track record. People know who I am and for the most part, I think it's a pretty respectable track record. Why would he be believed over me?

[00:23:32] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Yeah.

[00:23:32] Elizabeth: And there was a part of me that was like feeling pretty, pretty bitter about it. On the flip side, I feel like I'm grateful for that experience because now I have so much more compassion for all of these survivors who their perpetrators did much worse things to them.

My little airplane experience doesn't affect me on a day to day life. It's not something that haunts me. I'm not scared to go on airplanes. Like it hasn't stopped me from doing anything that I wanna do, but whereas these much more severe crimes can be truly devastating to a person's life. And then to have it thrown back in their face and be like why don't you remember it?

Well, it must not have been that bad. Well, are you really telling the truth? Well, actually we really just don't feel like we have enough evidence here to move forward because we don't think we'll get a conviction.

[00:24:25] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine on the other, if you had ended up having to go to court and this guy had a lot of money and what, how he could have discredited you. Now, you are formable because you have learned this voice.

You, you've accessed this incredible voice that says Uhuh, and it's such an inspiration to the people that listen to you to hear you that know you, but even you, if it had gone into trial, it might have been hard at the end of that, to be able to not...

You wouldn't have doubted yourself. I know you well enough to know that, but to, it would be very hard at some point to say, yes. You know, I'm gonna stand here. Cuz so many women have been intimidated out of the court process. Out of there's, in my mind, even working with survivors of coach abuse, there's a status quo that comes into it.

That when you speak up, then you become cast out of the group or out of the society place and you become judged and they don't, honestly, it is not the same as much for men. I think that there probably are some men listening to this saying, no, Dr. Bailey, that's not true. I went through that myself.

I know that, but still, we still live in a world where as women, our experience is questioned. And I can't believe they didn't charge. That's like I had wondered what happened. I knew that happened. And by the way, Elizabeth, you're not the only person I know that that's happened to on an airplane.

I had a, I think it was many years ago, a nine year old girl was flying to go see a parent in, I believe it was Florida. And it floored me to hear that experience, it's..

[00:26:17] Elizabeth: It was crazy, cuz I mean, even just as I'd like chatted about it with people who are in my life, they'd be like, oh, that happened to my friend.

Oh yeah. Like, you know, on planes. Like if, if you're a female, you get stuck in the middle, like, and you're back in, the economy it's very common. She was like, my friend got stuck in the middle, the one man on her side spread out the other man on the other side, spread out and before she knew it, she was getting her leg rubbed inappropriately and, she was in the middle, like hunched over legs, legs crossed and closed. And sh, like there was, what could she do? What could she say?

[00:26:52] Dr Rebecca Bailey: It's so strange. And I think that's where I'm I, the word appeasement we have to be careful with, because the word appeasement has also been used to describe what we women do anyways.

You know, on some level, not me, I never got that memo. I hate to say it. I never did, but I'm trying to learn that a little bit, but

[00:27:12] Elizabeth: I don't know, I think it's pretty good. I mean, honestly, like I struggle saying no. I do. I'll say it. Like I can tell people, you should just say no, no is a complete sentence.

Just say no. It's not that easy. Like, well, hang I have a hard time doing that.

[00:27:26] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Hang around with me for a full day. I'll teach you.

[00:27:28] Elizabeth: Okay.

[00:27:28] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Cause I, I

[00:27:29] Elizabeth: Clearly I don't spend enough time around each other as it is.

[00:27:33] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Yeah. Clearly, clearly we need to. I'm a Boston girl and Boston girls "no" comes out pretty easily. But I've also had to learn to tone it down sometimes.

But the reason I'm saying that, is that appeasement, when we talk about it from a physiological response to threat. Where it's it is something different. It's not a conscious thing of like, how can I, and I did mention, Kara, I did mention her and she did talk about the conscious piece, but she also was looking back on it and realized that later.

So it wasn't like in that moment. And I think you, and I've talked about that. In that moment, you're not like, "okay, let me be a good girl so I stay alive." You say your body more goes into, "what do I need right now?" The only thing I can say is, to tame the savage beast in front of you.

I had a situation a week ago, my kitten believe it or not was in the backyard. And a fox came up. And the dog barked and I looked out and the fox was face to face with this little cat and the cat was completely frozen and the fox was frozen. It was such an interesting thing. And then the cat slowly pulled back. And I, I don't know if that was appeasement. I don't know if that little cat and then the dog came out and chased the fox away.

And I dunno, it would've happened a minute later, but I don't know if that, to me, it looked like, just as I'm gonna be really clear and really regulated and really calm and back up. I, I don't know. Maybe that's what I was seeing. Maybe it wasn't. But that cat and I think this is how I'm going back to appeasement, that little cat is eight months old was definitely in a place of the body was sort of taking over. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know that's weird example, but

[00:29:27] Elizabeth: No, like when the little newborn elk up in Alaska get hidden in the brush and the bear walks by yeah, no, that, and that's, that's freezing.

[00:29:38] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Right. But it's not a full freezing cuz she wouldn't have been able to move in the freezing. So right.

[00:29:43] Elizabeth: So that's, like, appeasing.

[00:29:46] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Right. And one of the things that Jaycee said a long time ago is she learned to think like predator, but act like prey. And I have told you that before, and I love that line. Think like the predator, act like pray, but maybe it's more an internal, it's again, I wanna really emphasize that it's not so much a cognitive process. And I do think that's where a lot of traditional forms of therapy miss it, because what we can't help you think out of PTSD and trauma, we really can't. But if we can help your body experience something different, like even a connection, even, even a connection even with an animal or with a therapist that just feels a little different where you have a little oxytocin come when you connect with somebody. That's so much more powerful than talking about the event over and over, or trying to reason it out.

I just, that's a part of the whole therapy piece that I don't get sometimes again, I feel like that's another memo I missed in grad school, even though I'm Dr. Bailey I'm like, wait, I don't understand, like why sitting in an office, is that gonna help me process the trauma that I experienced?

I just, I never understood that.

[00:31:03] Elizabeth: Oh, that makes perfect sense to me actually. When I got back, I agree. I agree with you is what I'm saying. When I got back, I, my parents were very concerned about me. They thought, you know, do you wanna talk to a therapist? Do you wanna talk to a counselor?

Or do you wanna try some, you know, do you wanna try this? Do you wanna try that? And I remember just thinking, why would I do that? I mean, I had a lot of thoughts. One of 'em was why would I do that? I already survived. Why do I need to go tell them? They won't understand, but to hear you say that, unless you kind of have like that little drip of, what is it? Oxy, oxytocin, oxytocin.

[00:31:41] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Not oxy, not oxycodine oxytocin.

[00:31:44] Elizabeth: We're not supporting that on here.

[00:31:48] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Your currently oxytocin, that feeling of a connection. And in Porges's term, that's the central vagal connection, the part of your body that allows you for social connection. I don't wanna disbar, despair disparaged traditional therapy.

Sometimes it's really wonderful for people, but in my thinking what you just said, I always say the worst is over. And I do believe, and there has actually been some research on veterans, on treadmills being able to process better while they're moving. Well, I always say, and maybe it's because I'm, self-absorbed sometime it's I need a treadmill next to you because it is a lot to hear some of the things you all have been through, but it didn't happen to me.

So I know how to put it back. But if I'm out on a walk and talking to you or, sitting on a horse and riding or moving it's, there's something about that moment that helps me at least regulate to, to help you hold it. I hear so many survivors that say to me, I'm coming to you and I'm not doing as much direct service as day.

I'm trying to train other people more. But I hear survivors say, I said this to my therapist and the therapist said I was too much, that it was overwhelming to them. And I think that's meant as a statement of support, but it's not perceived for some survivors. What it's felt like is, oh my gosh, I'm overwhelming the, the therapist, even, they can't hear my story.

[00:33:16] Elizabeth: And that's a, I know people who I've heard that from as well.

[00:33:20] Dr Rebecca Bailey: I more than I would like to say, I get calls from people all over the country or emails, and I'm always surprised how much, how common that is. On one level, I support a therapist saying, wow, this is outta my scope.

But on the other level, I'm like find that out before they even come into your office. And you can't always, sometimes you're, six months into working with somebody and they tell you something like it's not a big deal. And you're like, what? And, but, I don't know, if you call yourself a trauma therapist, you better really be prepared to understand stories.

I do have a hard time with the Stockholm Syndrome thing. I do have a hard time with how something that came out of the media dictates how we perceive how people have experienced something. Now the good news is, Elizabeth, Stockholm is sign of moving out. We're not hearing, it goes in waves. We're not hearing it quite as much, but it does pop out of the mud again. But this word "fawning" coming back in concerns me even more because it's almost, I don't know, there's a part of that word that is like really that's the only power that you're gonna say that, that you can't flirt yourself out of a psychopath, right?

[00:34:35] Elizabeth: No, you can't.

[00:34:37] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Right! It's just really interesting. And it's also really, I think, dismissive to women power. I'm turning into an old feminist. Pretty soon, I'm gonna only be wearing purple and standing on street corners, holding a sign.

[00:34:50] Elizabeth: I love it. I love it. So,

[00:34:57] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Oh. Anyways, did I answer appeasement enough? Sometimes I feel like I start talking about it, then I go way off into the weeds.

[00:35:04] Elizabeth: Until next season, at least .

[00:35:08] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Oh, no. We're gonna make noise before that, Elizabeth.

[00:35:11] Elizabeth: Well, yes, but I mean, in this specific setting,

[00:35:14] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Yes, yes. And I so appreciate all that you're doing and you need to know.

You have become an accidental celebrity that then took your accidental thing and made it very intentional. And that's one of the things that makes you wonderful. And I hope that sounds okay to say that.

[00:35:32] Elizabeth: Aw, well, thanks.

[00:35:32] Dr Rebecca Bailey: It sounded better when I thought it out than when I said it.

[00:35:35] Elizabeth: Well, at least you thought it out first.

[00:35:38] Dr Rebecca Bailey: Good point.

[00:35:39] Elizabeth: But thank you. Thank you. That's. Thank you very much. And thank you so much for giving of your time today. It's always the highlight of my day, chatting with you and if nobody else got anything out of this, I did and that made it worth it for me. So I usually will try to give a recap at the end of a podcast.

And just say, these are some things I learned or these are the things that stood out or, we talked this and this. I feel like we covered a lot of ground today, but I hope that if you're listening and you're hurting or you're feeling guilt or shame over what's happened, you step away and recognize the fact that you are still here.

And there are so many people who do all the right things and they don't make it. And you are still here, whatever you did was not wrong. And that there are people out here who will believe you and who will support you and you'll join great company like myself, like Dr. Bailey, and we will believe you and don't give up because there is always hope in life and life is worth living and you deserve every happiness that life has to offer.

So with that being said, I want to say thank you so much for listening to another episode of Smart Talks, please be sure to like and subscribe and catch us next week on our next episode. See you soon.