SHOW NOTES
View Skye’s chart of Stand Your Ground laws across states here.
View Skye Lazaro’s professional information at rqn.com/attorney/skye-lazaro
Follow Skye Lazaro on Instagram and Facebook.
Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.
Join the Victory Club to get first access to Smart Defense+, the full Smart Defense curriculum available online.
Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.
TRANSCRIPT
Elizabeth Smart: Hello everyone, and welcome to another podcast today by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, Smart Talks. I am Elizabeth Smart, and today I am joined by Skyla Lazaro. She is an attorney and she specializes in Stand Your Ground laws. And I'm so excited to have her on today because this is a topic that honestly I've felt like is incredibly nebulous even to me, like, I don't know, half as much about it as I would like to know. And, I mean, I just remember wondering what exactly are my rights, what can I do? How far can I go in defending myself? And so today we have an expert on, so that's really, really exciting. Skye, thank you so much for joining us. I'm just, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.
[00:01:05] Skye Lazaro: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here, and it's great to talk to you about it and hope we can provide some really useful information for everyone.
[00:01:14] Elizabeth Smart: So starting, just diving right in with Stand Your Ground laws, where or how do people find out how far they can go or what their state allows them to do before they cross the line and can get in trouble?
[00:01:30] Skye Lazaro: So Stand Your Ground laws are really sort of, what they are is a justification for the use of force. So in every state it's statutory. So the law actually sets out, you know, when you're justified in using force to defend either yourself, your residence, other people, things like that. And in every state it's different. It's state specific.
And so Stand Your Ground has really sort of become this nuance with, you know, actually what we're talking about is justification as the defense to using force against another person.
[00:02:08] Elizabeth Smart: And I mean, when, like when does that justification come into play? I mean, I guess you mentioned it's different state by state, but when can you be like, okay, now I am like completely within my right to defend myself?
How, like how bad do things have to be before you can protect yourself?
[00:02:30] Skye Lazaro: So what the law requires is that you, as the person who is going to use force, has a reasonable belief that the force is necessary to prevent intrusion, injury, death, anything along those lines. I'll take Utah as an example, since that's where I live and practice, and Utah doesn't have a duty to retreat.
So if you are in a place where you can lawfully be the sidewalk, your home, someone else's home, anywhere where you have a lawful right to be, and you're not breaking a law by being there, if someone attempts to break into that home or hurt you or threaten you. And if they threaten you with a, like a show of force or the person you're with with a show of force, you're allowed to use force to defend yourself, to defend your home.
Now there is sort of a sliding scale as to how much force can you use. You know, someone goes to slap you, you're probably not justified in shooting them. If someone is breaking into your home, it's a very real application of the statute that you could use force that could cause serious and injury or death in order to protect your home.
[00:03:45] Elizabeth Smart: So I remember a few years ago I was in like this self-defense training and they brought in someone to talk about gun safety. And he said when someone, you know, is breaks into your home or is robbing you and you have a gun, it's better to shoot to kill than to shoot to wound, because if you hurt them, they can come back and sue you, even if you're protecting your property.
Is that true?
[00:04:11] Skye Lazaro: I think that is what they teach. I do think that's the practical application. I have a concealed carry permit, so I've done the gun safety courses as well, and they do teach you if you're in a situation where you feel like you need to use a gun to protect yourself or your home or someone else you should shoot to kill.
Because most of us average citizens, we're not trained law enforcement or military where we can, you know, safely, shoot and most people are just lucky to hit whoever they're shooting at is the reality in those situations. And so you, they teach you to, to aim for the largest part of the body, right? Like hit them somewhere in the chest or the body area. Because the reality is, is if you just wound them and they get your gun, that's a really, really terrible situation for you. And in the, in the circumstance, that is a a self-defense claim, or you can assert self-defense in the use of force.
Like I said, you know, it becomes no one, no one in the instant is really going to have the time to sit there and go through a legal analysis in their brain before they decide to do it. You know, if you are that, if you're afraid and someone is breaking into your home, yes, you should use force to protect yourself.
And then, you know, the law is not perfect. You know, no facts situation is perfect. So you may find yourself in a situation where you are facing criminal charges, but Utah does have a pretty strong self-defense statute that would be available as an absolute bar to prosecution. So if you can show that, you know, you were using the self-defense within the statute, it can result in a dismissal of the case.
There's the other option is what's called imperfect self-defense. So it's not quite doesn't reach the level of, you know, you were absolutely justified in doing what you do that you can still use.
And it's still available to you, it just, maybe isn't a complete dismissal. It is a reduction of charges or something.
[00:06:23] Elizabeth Smart: Okay. And I mean, what if you see another crime in process or in progress? Not necessarily directed at you, but you just happened to come across it. Are you within your rights to then step in and try to intervene or not?
[00:06:38] Skye Lazaro: That's also state specific. Some states say yes, some states say no. If you are, I mean, I generally speaking do not encourage people to be vigilantes. It depends on the crime. Just because of the risk involved. And sometimes it makes things worse. But if you were to see or witness someone assaulting someone else and you stepped in and used force, you can only use the force reasonable, or what you believe is reasonable, to stop the attack. So you're not always justified in using deadly force. But it has to be, you know, what you believe is reasonable or what a reasonable person would think is enough to stop the attack.
You are allowed to do that.
[00:07:25] Elizabeth Smart: I mean, I don't know that I personally have the physical capacity to kill someone, but I feel like if I saw someone being raped, if I saw like a child or another woman being raped and I had that capacity, I would feel like that was pretty justified, but maybe that's me speaking as a rape survivor myself. I don't know.
[00:07:46] Skye Lazaro: I think that the law allows for exactly that if you, if someone is committing a forcible felony against another individual, rape being one of them, you would be justified in using deadly force.
[00:07:59] Elizabeth Smart: And are there resources that people can turn to that can help them understand clearly what their state allows and what they don't?
[00:08:09] Skye Lazaro: You know, I actually looked, I provided that document to you guys that I had done for actually another group. And so I kind of did a deep dive Google search, and to be honest, there's stuff out there on Google, but I didn't really come across any specific, you know, group or website or anything that was, specifically geared towards this. I mean, you know, "this is what you're allowed to do." There's stuff out there, kind of like what I put together. And I do think there are some organizations that provide self-defense training that provide materials. But to be honest, I mean, it really just came down to, I looked up the statute and every state.
Yeah.
[00:08:52] Elizabeth Smart: Wow, that would have taken, I mean, there's 50 states. That's a lot of work.
[00:08:58] Skye Lazaro: It was a project. Yeah, I had some help on it, but it was a project.
[00:09:01] Elizabeth Smart: How did you find yourself pulled to this area of law?
[00:09:07] Skye Lazaro: Know, it's super interesting. I worked for, I went to law school in Montana. I actually have some experience as a victim as well, like going back years and years.
And I, you know, never really thought I would be a criminal defense lawyer. So, but I went to work for a law firm and then left with another individual and we started doing criminal defense. And, you know, I think it's not that the idea between criminal defense lawyers and victims is not really, we're not as polarized as I think, you know, general public belief, you know, would set forth. I work for victims as well. It's just sort of the area of law that I've specialized in and stayed in for all of these years. I mean, really what it comes down to is I think good criminal defense lawyers. I mean, our job really is just you know, uphold, make sure the cops do their job. The prosecutors do their job. You know, the system works. We're not out there changing the facts, or doing things like that. We're just, making sure that everybody's rights are upheld. And I think when you do that, it also increases the rights that the individuals have.
So like these Stand Your Ground laws, for example, you know, the biggest proponents for most of them have been the criminal defense bar.
[00:10:32] Elizabeth Smart: Really?
[00:10:33] Skye Lazaro: Right. So yeah. You know, because it, is not only as a defense for victims, but it's, you know, it really protects the rights of everyday citizens, people who aren't out there looking to be involved in criminal activity.
It just ha you know, unfortunately that happens upon them. They find themselves in those situations.
[00:10:56] Elizabeth Smart: You know, so, I mean, it's so interesting what you just said about defense attorneys and they're not as polarized as the public maybe perceives them. I just. Like, I mean, I can't help, but think of my own case.
And during the trial, I would look at the defense attorneys sitting next to my captors, and in my mind, I just sit there and think, how can you defend him? How can you be okay sitting next to him? He's a bad man. He's a bad, bad man. He did bad things. And like sometimes I would just cringe when some of them would stand up and start their cross-examination or, you know, they'd recall a witness to the stand. And sometimes I just be like, "what? Like why, how do you feel compelled to do that?"
And it wasn't until the very end until everything was all done. When the lead of the defense came over to. And he said to me, "Elizabeth," he's like, "I want you to know that I know this is a bad man, but I also want you to know that I did the very, very best that I could possibly in defending him. Because if he is sentenced, I don't ever want him to be able to make an appeal. I don't want him to ever be able to call for mistrial. I don't want to ever have to put you through this again, or have anyone else put you through anything like this again? And that is why I did the very best I could." And after he said that to me, I mean, that was like a real moment of, of light for me on why defense attorneys are actually important.
Because up until that moment, I think I kind of had to pessimistic attitude towards them, a little bit.
[00:12:29] Skye Lazaro: Which is completely fair.
[00:12:31] Elizabeth Smart: And so now, now, I mean, since that day, I mean, sometimes I'm like, "really like, really," but since that day, I think I have gained a greater appreciation for what you do do and why it's important to defend perpetrators or criminals as well as many of them do get defended. And it, for me, it's in the hopes that, you know, if a victim has their day in court and the perpetrator is prosecuted, it's with the knowledge, knowing that they had a fair trial and that they will never be able to call a mistrial.
[00:13:07] Skye Lazaro: Correct, yeah, I don't, I'm speaking for myself and the defense lawyers I know, none of us think it's okay to be a bad person. None of us think it's okay to, you know, these people are, do, do the terrible things that we find ourselves defending, but I, somebody said something to me and it comes from a quote and I don't remember who said it, but it resonated with me really early in my career was, you know, "someone has to defend the rights of the worst so that the best of us never live in fear of oppression."
And I think, you know, as I think our society kind of, in our justice system, really kind of encapsulates that, that, you know, we know these aren't good people, but we trust that the judicial system is going to work most of the time. Right? We trust that juries are going to take their jobs seriously, and they're going to be impartial.
And, you know, they're going to convict people when there's facts present to convict them. And when they're wrongfully accused that I've represented as many wrongfully accused people as I have people who, you know, are guilty of something, maybe not as bad as what they're accused of, but you know, they're certainly not innocent in it.
And, you know, representing people who are wrongfully accused is, is equally, it's almost worse, right? Because you're sort of up against this burden where, you know, your client didn't do it, right? And then you hope that the system works right. And that, you know, the judges do their job and the juries do their job.
And when the facts come out, you know, they make the right decision.
[00:14:57] Elizabeth Smart: Do you feel like they usually do make the right decisions?
[00:15:01] Skye Lazaro: I do, I mean, there's a few times where I've had cases where I thought I'm not really sure how they got there, but that has been, and I tried a lot of trials, I've been doing this about 15 years and I've done hundreds of jury trials and I really honestly believe juries get it right.
[00:15:20] Elizabeth Smart: I mean, that's, that's pretty, I mean to have someone then on the defense say that I feel like that's pretty I don't know if inspiring is the right word, but just maybe a little bit more uplifting in the faith of our judicial system, because sometimes a lot of the stories I hear I'm like, this is not right.
And I think one of the other things that just has resonated with me a lot, especially in speaking with so many different victims across the board is that we don't so much have a justice system as we have a legal system, because so much of the time what's taken from these victims, it's not like it can be given back.
It's not like you can erase the past. And so is it really justice for what happened to them? No.
[00:16:04] Skye Lazaro: I don't think it's justice, I don't think it's it, honestly, I don't, I don't think it's ever justice. I don't think, like you said, like there are things that happen to these people that you can't, you can't undo. I can't bring people back.
You know, someone can go to prison forever. They can get the death penalty. Whatever it is, and it's not ever going to make amends for what happened, you know, it's, it's not ever justice, but it is you know, it's punishment, it's deterrence, you know, all of those things.
[00:16:44] Elizabeth Smart: What are some of the most common things that you would like the general public to know about some of these laws and the legal system we have?
[00:16:53] Skye Lazaro: You know, I think the most important thing is one, if you're going to carry a weapon, I know like Utah and in a number of other states, I grew up in Montana, are very gun friendly states. People, like to have weapons. Like I said, I myself have a concealed carry. I think, you know, the most important thing is to be comfortable.
If you're going to carry a weapon, one, be comfortable with it. Like go to the shooting range, use it. Don't be afraid of it because I think, you know, the people who aren't comfortable with them, they carry 'em. Those are the people who ended up in like bad situations. Someone takes it and uses it against them.
The other thing is, is just, I would tell people be familiar with where you live. Like if you live in a state that requires you to retreat before you can use force, then make sure you know that, because some states do, if you live in a state like Utah that doesn't require you to retreat then protect yourself, you know?
And, I think legal aside, like I would always just tell people to protect themselves. Right. We can, lawyers can hash out what happened after the fact. We can't bring you back. Right. So if you are in a situation where you feel like you are, you know, there's a very real possibility that you're going to be injured, you should protect yourself.
[00:18:15] Elizabeth Smart: Well, I agree with that. I agree with that completely.
[00:18:20] Skye Lazaro: Like I said, you know, it's the legal nuances, aren't, something. I wouldn't do, and I know the law, but you know, someone was breaking into my house, I wouldn't sit there and say, okay, I can like hit him with a baseball bat, but I can't shoot him. You know?
Like I just don't want to die. Right? So,
[00:18:40] Elizabeth Smart: Well, is there, like, I mean, can we put a link to all the information you've compiled if people are interested or, I mean, can we...?
[00:18:48] Skye Lazaro: I mean, yeah, I would be, you can do whatever you want with that. I, and if you want any changes made to it included on it are the states that have concealed weapon carry requirements and stuff, if you know, just, it was kind of part of the original one that I put together, whether or not it's, you know, the licensing is required. And then there's links actually, I think, in every state to the actual statute. So, I'm more than happy to share that I'm probably gonna update it after every legislative session every year.
Just because it's, like I said, it's kind of one of those areas of the law that changes. Utah actually just put together a new statute on it just recently that really sort of bolstered the self-defense justification laws. So. You know, it's I'm happy to share that. And if anyone, you know, wants to reach out to me and has additional questions, I'm always available.
[00:19:45] Elizabeth Smart: And are you on social media or how do people get in contact with you if they're interested?
[00:19:50] Skye Lazaro: I am. I'm on social media. I think I provided a link to my just landing page with the firm. So they can email me, I'm on Instagram and Facebook.
[00:20:02] Elizabeth Smart: Perfect. Well, thank you so much. And I hope everyone who's listened walks away with, first knowing protect yourself. I mean, we have attorneys, they can, as Skye said, they can hash out the nuances, but they can't bring you back from the dead. So protect yourself first and let the attorneys do their job afterwards.
So with that being said, thank you so much Skye for taking the time out to talk to us today and thank you to everyone for listening. We hope you'll join us again next week.
I hope this episode of this podcast has been helpful to you and understanding what your rights are, at the end of the day the most important thing to do is just stay alive. Let attorneys figure out the aftermath. I mean, if you feel threaten