SHOW NOTES

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TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth Smart: [00:00:00] Welcome to Smart Talks. For the next few episodes, we're going to focus on a question I get asked a lot so many survivors come to me with questions about how to move forward with healthy relationships, and specifically sex, physical intimacy, after being abused or assaulted. I think this topic is so important, but I recognize that I can't answer these questions all on my own.

That's why for the month of July, we are going to interview therapists and survivors who have experience in this field. As we do this, I hope that many of you are able to connect with new tools for healing or think of new ways to advocate for survivors and for yourself and for your own sexuality. If you feel uncomfortable with this topic or are triggered by these topics, feel free to skip the next month and come back to us in August.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and today we have one of my favorite people here. She was our cohost last season and she is our head Smart Defense instructor, and she's just such a kind, incredible, amazing, just genuine, heartfelt person. Miyo Strong is here with us today and we're going to be continuing along the theme of talking about physical intimacy after sexual abuse and rape for this month of July. And so starting off Miyo, thank you for making time today to come do this episode with me and for people who don't know your history, do you mind just talking about some of your experiences of abuse that you experienced as a child and adult? 

Miyo Strong: [00:02:36] Yes. So I was sexually abused by a family member for, from the ages of seven until about high school. And it really has taken me a lot of years to work through and to come to terms with, but I'm in such a good, healthy place now and hopefully able to share my own experiences to help other people.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:02:58] I'm sure you're aware that probably some of the top questions involve addressing sex after being raped. And I mean, we've had, you know, we've had such an influx of questions and a lot of them are worded differently. But a lot of them ultimately are asking, you know, how do you have sex after being raped? How do you not feel triggered? How do you actually, how are you able to feel confident enough in your partner to actually be physically intimate with them, when a lot of people are already struggling just with holding hands or kissing or even the thought of going out with a person of romantic interest.

How was that initially for you when you first started dating? I mean, was that, was that difficult? Did you deal with issues of trust? 

Miyo Strong: [00:03:51] Oh yeah. I think my go-to response was a type of disassociating, like separating any of the physical or sexual experiences from the emotional intimacy. So like I had a lot of years of sex I've only recently had true intimacy. And you know, I was talking to my partner, Jason, about this last night because it's, my abuse ended over 20 years ago. I mean, I've done therapy, I've been divorced, I've, you know, I've gone through some major, I've lost a child. Like I've gone through some major life experiences, but it's just within the last, probably three to five years I feel like I finally Was brave enough to really take a good, hard look at my own role in my lack of sexual fulfillment. Because in my marriage, I always knew like, yeah, we had sex. We had kids. We, you know what I mean? Like the biology of it worked, but there was no love, there was no intimacy, there was no true vulnerability, which I think is such a key to having true intimacy.

And now that I have that with this partner, with Jason, his name's Jason, um, I am like the, I'm blown away by what I was missing, but at the same time, I'm completely willing to go through that 20 year drought if I knew this was what was on the other end. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:05:26] Do you feel like you could have gotten to this, was there any way you could have gotten to this point sooner? Or do you feel like there's anything along the way that helped you get to this point of being able to enjoy sex and real intimacy? 

Miyo Strong: [00:05:42] Yeah, I think it comes down to vulnerability and trust. And I tried, and with my ex-husband, he himself had a lot of trauma and he himself was very emotionally stunted and I don't feel like he could have met me even with all the effort, he couldn't have met me in the middle because he didn't do any work. Meanwhile, for the last, probably 10 years, I really focused on being the best version of myself, mainly for my children. 

And my one breakthrough, I feel like, was when my kids reached the ages of my abuse, some of my own behaviors started coming out that were not healthy at all. Like I became way more controlling, way more paranoid, way more controlling of my own children. And it was only through therapy, talk, traditional talk therapy, and also like sharing with my girlfriends who have had similar experiences, did I come to really realize and let go of my own abuse and my own role in it and what it came down to was I saw my seven-year-old as exactly what all seven-year-olds are, which are totally innocent. And forever I was thinking like, "what did I do? Why didn't I stop it?" Why didn't, you know what I mean? Like all, I took so much guilt and shame and I still had it, even though in my head, I had worked through like the logistics of it. And so I feel like working through my own trauma and coming to terms with, it helped me to begin to trust. Now, I'm not thousand percent trusting anybody, but that is, that is the goal for, you know, people in my circle. But being able to trust and communicate my needs was huge. 

And even though I was communicating my needs to my ex-husband, he was not in a healthy place himself. So I feel like there was just never going to be that connection. But with Jason and like when I was dating post-divorce that was one of my main goals, was like, I am going to be completely transparent, completely honest with all of my romantic interests. I'm not going to hide anything. I'm not ashamed of who I am or how I got here.

And yeah it was dark and twisty road, but I'm here now and I'm proud of who I am. And I look at it now. It's interesting because I see Jason and I and our physical intimacy and it's directly linked to our emotional bonding as well. And that has come through trial and error. We didn't start that way. Like I was pretty honest with him about my sexual abuse and my past, and some of the poor, unhealthy, toxic choices I made in my coping mechanisms. And he accepted everything. He's one of the only people I've ever met that just, like he honestly is so secure in his own place and his own emotional health that he can meet me wherever I'm willing to go with him. And it took baby steps. Like at the beginning, I was very, I was very transparent about my abuse, but I wasn't necessarily that transparent in the bedroom. But I started to be, as I saw that he was safe, I think feeling safe is huge with your partner, communicating is huge, and being vulnerable. So those three things are the, like the recipe for true intimacy after abuse in my experience.

Now, I don't want anybody to be discouraged because it took me over 20 years to get to this place. But it is such a process and I no longer can separate my body and what happens to my body in the bedroom with my soul and my spirit, which is what I was doing for years. It was just a physical act. And yes, there's pleasure in that physical act, but nothing compared to a true intimate experience with a partner you trust. That's a long winded... 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:09:32] No, I think, I think it makes so much sense and it's, it's so helpful because it is, I think very easy to just think, okay, well, you know, I'm in a relationship now and yes, I was raped or yes, this happened in my past and I recognize that sexual intimacy is an important part of relationships, so I'm just going to power through this because I want my relationship to be a success. I want this, I want this in my life, so I'm just going to power through. So I think you really breaking it down and being like, no, you can't power through, like, for you to have a true intimacy during sex, like you need to be vulnerable and you need to feel safe and you know, you need to make sure your body and your soul are connected. I think that's, I think that's absolutely spot on. So I appreciate your answer. 

Miyo Strong: [00:10:21] Well, and it's still like, we still talk about boundaries all the time and things that he would like to explore in the bedroom that I'm not currently ready to do that. And I think what's important is as a partner, Jason gives me all the power and control when it comes to making choices about moving those boundaries. And he wouldn't know about those boundaries unless I communicated clearly to him what it is. Now, I don't always go into detail why that's a boundary and he doesn't ask. He just gives me the space to talk about it when I'm ready. And usually if something comes up, he's sensitive enough. 

And he's an empath, which I don't know how many people are familiar with that term, but he is very sensitive to like shifts of energy, I know that sounds a little "woo woo." But it is true and I'm a very science data based type of human, but he is so intuitive and like, we can be together, and he can sense like a shift of like, okay, you're starting to shut down, like, or, you know what I mean? There's something there that doesn't feel right. And so he backs up, slows down. We talk about it. We take all of the, taking it personal, like he doesn't take it personal. He knows it's not something against him when I have a boundary. It's something...

Elizabeth Smart: [00:11:38] Did he always know it wasn't against him? 'Cause I think a lot of, a lot of survivors are like, you know, I just don't know how to tell like my partner and I don't know how to make them not feel, I mean, cause I feel like, you know, sexual intimacy already is so like personal and like vulnerable, like anytime anyone's like, "oh, I don't like that." Or anyone, anytime anyone says something, some form of displeasure, you're like, "oh my gosh, what did I do wrong? Like, am I, you know, am I not attractive enough?" or you know, "what, am I not doing it right?" I feel like sex, there's so much murkiness and grayness. 

I mean, even like, I think of my own life and, you know, we had maturation and I basically learned what sex was from my neighbor across the street, who was my best friend. But it wasn't something that like, and then by the time sex ed came around in high school I actually had asked to be excused from it. I think it was like the wrestling coach who was like teaching it or something. And at that point I was like, I've already been raped. I know what sex is. Like, I don't want to sit in here and listen to it. And I don't want to listen to it with a bunch of like these other kids that honestly I'm not particularly close to, or maybe there's one or two friends in there and the rest of them I don't know anything about. And so I excused, like I had, my parents sign me out of sex ed like that week or so that you talk about sex. 

But then, I mean, from then until the time that I was married, it wasn't, I mean, yes, I knew what the physical act was, but it wasn't something that was really spoken about. It wasn't something that was really explained. It was just like, "yeah. That's part of marriage and that's what you do on your wedding night. And, you know, that's how you have kids and, and that's that." And that was more or less it. And like, I think also of, I don't know, I just think that a lot of people would agree and say that they were kind of in the same boat in this level of, of murkiness.

So, how did Jason not take it personally? Like, was it something that he learned or was it just something that he is Superman, intuitively he has inside and he's like, "oh, she's not telling me I'm doing something wrong. She's just, you know, like this, the actual act that she's not comfortable with?"

Miyo Strong: [00:13:57] No, it's been, I mean, I give him a lot of credit. I think he handles it more, in a more healthy way than the average human would, because he is very, he's worked very hard to be secure and to love who he is, but he's not infallible and yes, he has taken it personally in the past. And it took me kind of shifting my own thought process of like, "oh, I am damaged. I'm not what he wants. He's mad now that he can't do what he wants" to like, "oh, he's like hurting too, because he doesn't want to hurt me. And he thinks that maybe it's him," right? And he does not wanna be associated with my abuser. He does not want to be associated at all with men that are, you know, unhealthy, toxic humans.

He wants to be the best version of himself for us and for himself. And it took I mean, and we talked about this last night too, pretty openly, so I'm sure he won't mind, but we had a situation recently last week where I had said to him, "Hey, I need you to be softer" and this was not in the middle of sex. This is not in the middle of anything. It was just like, "I'm feeling a little bit close to the edge. And so I need, what I need from you is a little bit more softness." And previous, we had had the same conversation maybe a month ago. And he had been like, "what are you talking about? I haven't done anything hard. Like I haven't done, I haven't been mean, I haven't," like, he didn't know how to take that, but when I explained it to him, like, "no, no, no, no, it's not you, it's just like, I enjoy like pushing boundaries. I enjoy exploring with you, but it is important for me to always come back to home base, which is safety and security and vulnerability and, you know, true closeness."

And so the second time around when I was like, "Hey, just so you know, like, I need a little bit of extra softness from you the next few days. Like it's been a rough," and it's not just rough, physical in the bedroom with him. It's rough, like when I'm emotionally taxed other places, I feel like I don't have the bandwidth to really explore different things until I'm at my strongest point.

So asking for that and clarifying and being patient with each other, I think we keep making progress. It's not perfect, but it is amazing. And he didn't come to it that way, just in a nice package, he's been working on it as well. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:16:24] Do you feel like, cause I like, as I've progressed in my own relationship, like, I feel like it's been like helpful for me to listen to other people talk about their, you know, relationships and, you know, what's worked for them and what hasn't, and it's helped me, the more I've learned, the more it's helped me personally. And so now I'm kind of curious, cause one thing that I have kind of heard, I'd say fairly often is that it's never really great to be in the middle of sex and be like, "Hey, like this is too much" because then emotions are already like up high and you're like, "oh, I did something wrong."

I feel like what I've heard has worked better for a lot of people is that when they're not even in the bedroom, when they're not in the middle of sex and just being like, "Hey, you know, how are you feeling this is going? And actually I've noticed like lately I've been feeling this, so I'd appreciate, like, I think for the next little while I'd appreciate this," like, have you come across that at all?

Miyo Strong: [00:17:32] Yeah. Yeah. We actually talk about that in Smart Defense, just the ability to, when you create a boundary it's most effective when you're not in the heat of the moment, when you're calm and when you can phrase it as not a negotiation, but just a statement. And so I've tried to implement that when it comes to healthy sexual relationships. And with Jason, I mean, we've done both.

Like we, we have, and it's not like a traditional safe word, but like Jason, my train jiu-jitsu MMA striking like all the time. So the tap is a universal, like uncool, give up, like stop, whatever you're doing. Like I've reached the point. So I know I have that always in my back pocket when we're in the heat of the moment. I know I have a safe word. I know I have a bailout. I know, and, and me knowing that I have that, and also knowing that Jason understands that if I play that card it has nothing to do with him and everything to do with what I'm feeling and what I need. And in order to keep myself safe and to not re-traumatize myself, I'm going to play that card pretty liberally.

I actually have never played that card with him, but I know I have it. And that was something we discussed not in the heat of the moment. That was a boundary and an agreement that we came to, you know, just at dinner. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:18:52] One of the other questions we come across quite a lot is, I feel, how am I, how do I word it now of all the many times I've been asked this question, I can't even think of how it's worded, but it's talking about essentially the first time you enter into sex or, like the first period of having sexual intimacy with another person after being raped, did you find that triggering when you first started being sexually active after you'd experienced your sexual abuse? 

Miyo Strong: [00:19:21] I more disassociated. Like I just checked out, like, it was like my body was there, but I wasn't. And it was like that for a long time. And I don't think I ever really came to grips with that until recently, because I'll give an example, but just in a generalized way. So when Jason and I first started dating, we were kind of asking each other about our sexual fantasies and our sexual preferences and kind of exploring if we were compatible that way before we ever were in the act of it.

And he had some scenarios that I think most typical men and have in their head. And I was like, sure, yeah, I'm down, whatever, you know. But when I realized like I'm down with that because when I have done that in the past, it's because I didn't care about anybody involved. And as Jason and I got closer, I was like, "Hey, just so you know, this is off the table now, but it's off the table because I love you. And it's off the table because I I don't feel like it would be healthy for me because I just associate it with not caring about the people involved and that's not where I want to be. That's not who I am moving forward." And so that's been an interesting adaptation, I should say. 

And so for me, like, yes, I remember my first partner after my abuse ended and I don't remember the act. Like I remember like sure we had sex, but I don't, like, I didn't truly,, I wasn't there. It's, it's a weird thing that I'm sure a lot of people, and I've spoken to survivors in the past about this where they do, they just like, kind of check out, but they do it because they feel obligated or like they want to start having a family or like all these other, so social, societal pressures, which makes me sad because I've been there and I've done that and it's not fulfilling at all.

But it's not a quick fix either. It's a lot of work just like working through your own trauma is, it's a lot of work with the partner moving forward. But, but now I feel like, and I tell Jason this all the time. I'm like, it's a damn privilege for you to be my sexual partner. Like I'm giving you something that's so cherished. And in return, I feel like it's a privilege for him to be that vulnerable with me as well. And that connected in such a way that I feel like our relationship is stronger because of it. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:21:58] So I have two questions to follow that up. The first one is I'm sure when you finally stayed present in that moment that there was fear going in there. I mean, how could there not be? So how did you overcome that fear? And secondly once you did end up staying present, did you ever experience any triggers then? And if so, how did you deal with them? 

Miyo Strong: [00:22:30] Yeah, I think we started really, really slowly. Like I think, when I think back to those moments with Jason at the very beginning of our relationship, it was a lot of eye contact, a lot of soft, like holding and communicating, like, is this okay? And like, how are you feeling? And like really being present and also giving feedback because it I'm a very strong person and I have only in the recent years come to accept my own vulnerabilities and weaknesses. Right? Because I don't, I no longer have to be wrapped in barbed wire to survive. And so I've given that privilege to Jason by risking rejection, right? Risking offending him, risking everything, because I feel like it's worth it because moving forward, there's nothing more that I want in this life, outside of like raising happy, healthy children and being the best mom I can be, is really connecting truly with my partner and moving forward in life, making up for all the time I've missed. And making up for all of the experiences I missed.

And so being vulnerable and going slowly and communicating and checking in all the time. And again, it's like try to do it in the most unstressful way. Like the, the kids are away at house, you know, to play dates or the kids are not going to walk in or the, you know, you have a chance to really connect emotionally first and then the physical stuff can follow.

I think that was a really good stepping stone for us. And we, we keep coming back to that. Like, we, we will have discussions where it's like, all right. I kind of have been thinking about this or this came up last time or, and, and I'll ask him like, "well, did you feel that? Or did you sense that?" And he's like, "yeah, I didn't know if we should talk about it in the moment, or if we should stop or if we should, I don't know." And I'm like, "okay. I didn't know either. And it was okay. What happened was okay. And moving forward, let's just keep checking in." And I think him giving me the power is one of the keys. But also that, the pace, like, they let you set the pace. 

And it's hard for a lot of guys to understand if they have no, if they haven't discussed it in their family before, if they weren't raised on like, well, you were mentioning earlier just how like sex ed in high school and public school is how a lot of us were exposed for, well, not first, but, you know, how a lot of us learned about that. And I was the same, like we didn't discuss anything in my household growing up. We didn't talk about anything like that. I barely learned what a pad and a tampon work from a book that my mom handed me. Like we didn't have a discussion at all, but, and my friends, like you learn from your friends. 

And so Jason are very open and honest with their children and I have a 14, almost 15 year old. And I'm honest with her about like sex is pleasurable, like intimacy and connection, and like truly being seen by somebody is so much more valuable than, oh, he's whatever other accolades you think you're attracted to, like at the baseline as humans, that vulnerable intimacy is priceless.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:25:44] I think it's almost, it's almost, I don't know, not a graphic question, but it's not graphic, but it's, and I have a feeling that there's no such thing as one answer for everyone, I feel like it's something that you'd have to figure out for yourself, but I'm going to ask it anyway because we get, I get asked it and they say, "well, how long did you wait to have sex from the time that you met your husband or your partner? And, you know, do you feel like you waited an extra long time because of what happened? Do you feel like you waited at all? Do you feel like there was a roadblock there at all for you?" So, what are your thoughts on that? 

Miyo Strong: [00:26:27] Yeah, that's a good one. So previous, like when I was divorced or previously in dating situations, I didn't wait at all because it just did not, part of me saw myself as a physical commodity. Like it wasn't a healthy relationship between myself and my body and my sexuality. It was more like, you know how some people get hyper-sexualized after abuse? It wasn't to an extreme side, but that definitely was part of my identity and like where I saw value.

Which is unhealthy. And so I, it took a lot of thinking and thoughtful effort on my part moving forward after I was recently divorced, knowing that I wanted to do something differently. And so, yeah, Jason and I waited a long time, like, and we kind of laugh because I'm pretty confident and aggressive. And like, I don't mind like speaking my mind and being like, hey I really want to kiss you or, you know, whatever. When Jason and I had our first kiss, it was definitely him like, "Hey, don't leave. I'm not letting you leave until we," you know what I mean? Like we, cause we had just waited and waited and waited and waited.

And from day one we were chemically, physically attracted to each other and there was that chemistry for sure. But we just both wanted to do it the right way. And so we did go slowly. And I don't think it was anything other than, I don't think it had to do with necessarily trauma or it just had to do with, we both really wanted this to be the healthiest possible relationship because we had both just left, really unfulfilling, really just loveless marriages and moving forward, we just are so goal oriented on never doing that again. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:28:17] So my next question, I mean, you and I both have met survivors of, I mean, just, just horrendous, hellish abuse. I mean, some of the abuse you and I have heard has just been, I mean, just the stuff of nightmares and then some. And I think it's fair to say that everyone wants to feel loved. Everyone wants love in their life. There's a lot of fear involved and there's a lot of distrust involved. And so, I mean, trying to be fair to both sides, I mean, to the survivor and to the partner of the survivor. How do you navigate that? Because I mean, sex is important. 

Is it fair, I'm just going to ask, is it fair to ask a partner to wait, you know, years and years and years until that person feels like they're ready? What if they are never ready, but you still love them? I mean, Do you have any thoughts on that? 

Miyo Strong: [00:29:39] Like I said earlier, like, I feel like it's a privilege for Jason to get that side of me because I love myself and I know my worth and my value. And so if he, if I needed more time, I would expect him, fair or not fair, I would expect him to give me that time because I'm worth it. Now would I hold him, you know, his feet to the fire if he decided he couldn't wait any longer? No, because you have to see it from both sides. 

I think it would be really, really tough to be married to someone and not be actively working on intimacy. Now that doesn't mean you have to be actively sexually active, but doing the work. Like, if that is a goal for you as a partnership, what are you both doing to get to that healthy spot? And it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's, I don't like being called out by my therapist. I don't like being held accountable, but, you know, by my friends to be like, "Hey, that's not really a healthy behavior you're exhibiting," you know, but luckily I have people in my life that do that. And I think in turn, Jason is trying to learn all he can and be very, very open-minded about my perspective. So I think it comes equally. Like I have to give as much to his perspective as he's giving to mine. If I expect him to meet me halfway, I have to try my hardest to see it from his perspective as well.

And it's, it's frustrating. It's, you know, can I think take a toll on your self-esteem, you know, if you, if you really are sexually attracted to somebody, but they're not reciprocating that, but it's not about you. It's about their own trauma. I think trying to meet in the middle and compromise and see things from his side, as well as him giving the same effort to your side is where the true, like growth and change can occur.

This is so tricky. I mean, it's, it's such a hard, a hard subject. And a lot of it is because nobody talks about it and it's almost taboo to bring it up. If you're married, people are just expecting you to have sex and to have a great sex life. Like you have kids or whatever, you know, they, you, we don't talk about it in our culture. And so that's why I think it's Smart Talks is great. Having the experts on is great. And also having personal stories on is good because it's not embarrassing. I'm not embarrassed about my journey. I was in the past and I've worked very hard not to be there and I want to help other women just to even see, like it's out there. It's possible. It took me over 20 years, so don't be discouraged, but it's out there and it's possible. 

And it is one of the greatest gifts of life, I feel like. My love language happens to be physical too, so that all ties in as well. But I, I couldn't be happier with my sex life currently. And I couldn't be more proud of my partner and myself for how hard we've worked to get here, and also acknowledge that we have a long ways to go still. Right? Because it's just a never ending evolution of learning about each other's bodies and learning about each other's emotions and, and different moods. And there's so many factors. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:33:04] So, would you agree with this statement, then, that it's important for survivors, if they enter into a relationship that is going to lead to physical intimacy to share their trauma, because otherwise, how can their partner ever understand what they're going through or why maybe they're not comfortable with something. Would you agree with that? 

Miyo Strong: [00:33:27] Yes, to a certain extent, like first, second, third date in like a traditional sense, I don't know that it's their honor yet to know your story. Because it can, it's a risk for the traumatized person to share that With a person that may not give you the response you need to keep moving forward. So, yes, like I feel like it's imperative that you disclose your trauma, especially if you're in a long-term relationship, but right off the bat, I don't know that that needs to be a first date disclosure or even a third date disclosure. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:34:06] Because for me, I mean, quite honestly, like this whole topic, just this past month of recording, these episodes has been actually quite a learning curve for me because I mean, my, my situation people are like, "oh, did you ever talk about your husband with it?" And I was like, he knew. It was such a public story. And although he's from Scotland, he's from the UK, you know, and, and he didn't follow my story or anything. You know, he was busy playing soccer with his friends. So he didn't personally know my story, but all of the other people who were around us in this situation who were Americans, you know, they all knew. And so they'd come up to me and ask for pictures with me and he'd, he'd be like, wait, what's going on? Like, who is this girl? I mean, cause I mean, it wasn't just like right off the bat, like, "oh, like we're going to be together." It wasn't like that in our relationship. But he's like, "wait, what's going on?" So like the other people we were around would be like, "oh, well she's actually like famous or well-known or however you want to say it, you know, cause she was kidnapped and like all this stuff came back, but she came back alive. And it was like, it was like this whole part of our childhood we all followed."

And so he knew really from the very beginning of meeting me before we even thought about, you know, dating or being romantically involved, he already knew to an extent of what had happened. And then once we started dating, I was just like, you know, "if you have questions, you can ask me, but it's probably not something that I'm going to just like bring up a lot. And that's not because I'm uncomfortable. It's just because I don't. So if you have something like, you feel like you need to know, you need to ask me because I won't know to answer it for you otherwise." 

Miyo Strong: [00:35:53] That's a beautiful form of communication right there. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:35:57] And, but so a lot of people have asked me that and like, I feel like my experience was something completely different. And as you and I both know, I mean, you walk down the street and, you know, at least a fifth of the women you walk by have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime, but you wouldn't know that just by looking at them. You, you wouldn't know that and nor would, you know, the guy know that he was dating them. So I think that's a very helpful answer.

Miyo Strong: [00:36:29] Yeah. Well, we get great questions, when I do co-ed seminars on Smart Defense, a lot of the male audience asks pretty consistently, like "what can I do? Like how can I help make other people feel safer? How can I help females know that I'm not a predator? How can I..." So I think the culture shift is coming. Like the more the men realize that, yeah, one in three, one in five, like the numbers are astounding. The chances are they're probably dating or have dated or will date somebody that has experienced sexual assault. And so, get educated. And I love how you gave Matthew the option of like, "Hey, I'm an open book, but you have to ask because otherwise I'm dealing with it in other ways, or I'm choosing, I'm not going to do that." 

And I think that's a really great place to start too, is if you're uncomfortable, just disclosing, maybe you can say to your partner, "Hey, like, I just want you to know, like, I hope if you have any questions, like you can come to me and ask me and vice versa and I will do my very best to, you know, be honest with you."

Elizabeth Smart: [00:37:41] Yeah, I agree 100%. 

Miyo Strong: [00:37:44] Cause and did Matthew, do, did he ask you questions throughout?

Elizabeth Smart: [00:37:47] Honestly? He has not asked a ton of questions over the years. He's certainly heard me speak and he knows I get very passionate about survivors and being respectful. And like anytime we watch a show and there's like a female contestant I'm like, "come on!"

So, and especially, you know, we have, we have two daughters, well we have three children. We have a girl, a boy, and a girl, and particularly for my daughters it's, you know, it's very important to me that, you know, they feel just as empowered as any man out there. And it's important for me for my son to respect women and to never think that he's above women or that he can, you know, talk down to a girl or talk down to a woman.

I mean, he's four. So right now we're working on, "Don't bite. Don't hit." And that goes for anyone unless they're hurting you in which case, bite away. And you tell mama, you always tell mama. 

Miyo Strong: [00:38:55] Well, and do you think you'll, I'm curious, like if you think as your kids get older, you'll take the sex education into your own hands, even just given like what we experienced in public school?

Elizabeth Smart: [00:39:08] Absolutely actually. I mean, I, I think of, you know, where I am now and I think maybe I said this earlier in the podcast, or maybe I didn't, maybe I was just thinking it, but I think of where I am in like my own sex life with, with my husband, and I wish I was where I am now when we got married. Because I feel like I have learned so much since then. That's okay. Like, it's like, it's okay for me to like, take more control and I don't need to just like lay there. And, you know, it's not just about, you know, fulfilling a husband or fulfilling a spouse.

It's about my, my personal fulfillment as well. And so I want my daughters, when they engage in sexual intimacy for the first time, I want it to be intimacy for them. I want it to be good for them. I think as a girl, as a woman, it's already scary enough. And a lot of women would say it's been very painful, you know, their first time, or like, I think of my friends and they're like, "oh, I hated sex the first night" or "I hated sex the first year of our marriage" or, you know "it, it's awful, like I don't want to have it" because there is such, I feel like, you know, you just, you don't understand it. I don't know. Like, there's just like this disconnect. I mean, it's always very clear when, you know, a man has an orgasm, but it's not necessarily that clear when a woman does or how a woman does.

And I want that for my girls, you know, I want it, I want it to be good. I want them to feel secure in their sexuality. And I want them to feel like they, it was, they feel confident enough in themselves and in their knowledge of it to, when they actually engage in sex, that they're able to communicate properly with their partners instead of like beating around the bush so much that, you know, whoever they're being intimate with doesn't understand what they're saying or, or have my daughters think they're being clear when in fact they're being about as clear as mud because, I think that happens to all of us. You're worried about offending someone or it's an awkward subject or it's sensitive. And so you, you kind of like tip toe around the perimeter and you think you're communicating clearly what your point is across. When in reality, the other person thinks, "oh, so you mean this" and it's something completely different than what you were trying to say.

Miyo Strong: [00:41:42] Yeah. It's been a really interesting discussion between, 'cause my girls are older than yours. Almost 15 is my oldest. And we actually spoke about masturbation. And I know that's like a uncomfortable topic for people, but even as I'm teaching Smart Defense and all these survivors are disclosing to me, or friends are disclosing to me that they don't like sex or they, they shut down during sex or all these other things, and one of the very first questions I ask them is, "okay, so can you orgasm on your own?" Because it's really hard to communicate to a partner how you want to be touched or felt or loved if you yourself don't know how your body works. And it's, it's a natural thing for kids to explore their bodies.

And I try really, really hard because in my, in the household I grew up in, we didn't talk about anything. And now I'm all I'm trying to toe that line of not talking about it too much. Cause oftentimes my daughter will be like, "mom, like nobody needs to look up teabagging" or because you know, if they hear something at school, I'm like, let's look it up. Let's learn about it. Let's, I have my definition, let's see what Wikipedia says, you know, like let's learn about it. 

And so it's important, I think, as women, and I'm choosing, personally, to teach my own children that like understanding your body is paramount to understanding how to ask for what you want from a partner. And there's no shame in your body like you're, we are built for pleasure. We have so many different nerve endings in so many places on our body that are built for pleasure specifically. And it's a gift. That's my personal way that I'm choosing to raise my daughters. Is that right for everyone? No. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:43:16] And I think, I mean, I think you bring up a good point. You know, we, we are raised, I mean every one of us is raised differently and depending on where you live, there are different societal norms and kind of different societal practices that are more accepted than others. So really what it comes down to is education. And maybe it's not learning maybe, maybe you don't learn one way. Maybe you learn it through another. Maybe it's just gonna be, you know, extreme communication, and feeling very confident in your communication as you engage in sexual intimacy. Maybe it's like Miyo said, you know, you need to learn your body for yourself and figure it out for yourself and what works for you.

It is, I mean, it is a, it can be a very difficult subject to talk about. And honestly, it's one that I never dreamed I would be talking about on a podcast. I never thought I'd be asked the questions that I've asked. And like, when I first was being asked these questions, I'm like, "oh my goodness." It was pretty shocking, but you know, as I've continued on in this field and I'm married and I have three children, so obviously I have had sex in my life. And then I've met so many survivors who are struggling with that same topic. I mean, it's been, it's not just been like a spur of the moment thing, "oh, we should talk about this." I mean, this has been like years in the coming and like, yes, I initially was like, "oh my goodness, how am I ever going to, how am I ever going to even approach this topic?" And now, and now here we are. 

But I think that you bring up just such a valid points that, you know, your body does have specific areas that are purely there for pleasure and nothing else. And it's not a bad thing. Feeling pleasure is not a bad thing. I mean, if, if you weren't supposed to, you wouldn't have those areas on your body. So, I mean, learn about your body, learn about, you know, better communication, learning about what you like, what you don't like, figuring out where your boundaries are, meeting your partner halfway, being able to communicate with your partner, and help them to understand like maybe why this isn't okay. And, and like Miyo set, you know, try to avoid it in the heat of the moment because...

Miyo Strong: [00:45:44] Then feelings get hurt. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:45:45] Then feelings get hurt, and nobody likes their feelings getting hurt, especially when that's the last thing you ever intend to do. I mean, I love, I love my husband so much and hurting his feelings is the last thing that I ever want to do. And usually when I find out that I've hurt someone's feelings, I feel terrible about it for weeks and months. So, I mean, hurting someone is, is never my intention. It's the last thing I ever want to do. And especially when it's someone that I love so much. 

So, Miyo, thank you so much for sharing, I mean, really, a very intimate, private part of your life. I think you've just shed so much light on the topic and hopefully you've helped some of our listeners here today.

And if you are struggling, if you are not knowing where to turn or you are in a relationship and you're not quite sure where to begin, maybe don't begin in the bedroom. 

Miyo Strong: [00:46:45] Yes. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:46:45] Just take it slowly. Take it step by step and work on loving yourself and don't feel like you're disservicing anyone or disservicing your partner. Work together, because there's a difference between rape and abuse and sex and physical intimacy, sexual intimacy. There is a big difference. And sex should be enjoyed, not just powered through. So with that being said, I want to thank you so much for your time and for sharing everything that you've shared with us today, Miyo, 

Anytime. I'm an open book. 

And thank you to everyone for tuning in today for this episode of Smart Talks, we will catch you next time next week. See you soon.