SHOW NOTES

Visit Wendy’s website, www.healthysex.com.

Order Wendy’s book mentioned often throughout the interview, The Sexual Healing Journey.

Order Wendy’s book mentioned at various points of the interview, Private Thoughts: Exploring the Power of Women's Sexual Fantasies.

View information on Wendy’s other books here.

Watch Wendy’s video, Relearning Touch: Healing Techniques for Couples, for free.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth Smart: [00:00:00] Welcome to Smart Talks. For the next few episodes, we're going to focus on a question I get asked a lot. So many survivors come to me with questions about how to move forward with healthy relationships, and specifically sex, physical intimacy, after being abused or assaulted. I think this topic is so important, but I recognize that I can't answer these questions all on my own.

That's why for the month of July, we are going to interview therapists and survivors who have experience in this field. As we do this, I hope that many of you are able to connect with new tools for healing or think of new ways to advocate for survivors and for yourself and for your own sexuality. If you feel uncomfortable with this topic or are triggered by these topics, feel free to skip the next month and come back to us in August.\

Welcome back everyone to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am Elizabeth and we have a returning guest today. We have Wendy Maltz with us, and she is, she has been in this field of sex therapy for 40 plus years. She's the author of multiple books on, on sexual healing

And she's just been an incredible resource on our earlier podcast that we've had. And I'm so excited to have you back again and looking forward to continuing that conversation. So thank you again, Wendy.

Wendy Maltz: [00:01:56] Oh, very happy to be here with you again. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:01:59] So just jumping right back in, you know, the last episode we did together, we talked a lot about getting to that point of you know, when is it appropriate to come into sexual healing, having your partner supporting you?

We talked kind of a lot about, I feel a lot of the overarching issues surrounding this. And so today I guess I'd like to dig in a little bit deeper, maybe more on specifics. So one of my first questions is how do survivors, what can survivors do to deal with automatic responses to, to touch? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:02:44] Well, there's these are very common for there be, to be automatic reactions to touch.

We, we talked last time about how, you know, sex involves things that go on on a mind, sensation, thought, body level, interaction level. So there's lots of areas and, and we're in certain environments and anything that there can be ways we're re triggered about the abuse we went through. And so we can have a reaction to body parts or certain types of touch.

And to, to know that these are very common, they're understandable reactions. They happen as a result of what you've been through. And so the ways you can deal with them, I mean, I think learning about them is really important, so you understand the full range that, that can happen. And then being able to realize that you have options to, you know, first, like stop, become aware you're having a reaction and, you know, sometimes survivors will go, "oh, why do I have to be having this reaction? I really want to push it away and not have it," but it's like no, we're just kind of like, "okay. You're here, reaction," you know? And then so you stop, become, aware you're having a reaction. You're kind of validated. "I wouldn't be having it if I didn't, if something wasn't going on for me, let's see if I can put my detective hat on and try and figure out what that is." You calm yourself and even just kind of putting your hand on your chest, you know, where your heart is and, and rubbing a little bit  in a circle or just pressing your hand gently on your heart, can calm yourself down. Breathing into your lower belly can be very helpful. So you, you want to approach it physiologically to, to calm yourself down and, and breathe. Be able to affirm your present reality. We had talked about that same last, last time of "that was the then. This is the now." 

I remember working with a survivor. She took a little post-it note and she wrote, "I'm 30, whatever years old, you know, I'm the mother of a couple of kids, I'm married,  you know, I have this job. This is who I am now." And affirmations that she wanted to remind herself of when she had a reaction. Like this is, my sexuality is a gift, you know, a God-given gift or a, you know, a nature it's, it's part of nature, whatever one's belief systems are. And you know, it's like, I have a right to feel pleasure. So she had these things on affirming her present reality. Then she would kind of crook her head up. She put it on the headboard of, of her bed. And when she had a reaction, like in lovemaking, she'd stop with her partner, go back and kind of look at the crib sheet, you know, of, of affirming her present reality. And then being able to approach in a new way, and alter the experience. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:06:11] And I think for me, kind of your answer that you're explaining just reaffirms to me that, and I know we talked about this last time, but it just reaffirms to me so much the difference between sexual abuse, rape, and the intimate act of loving, consensual sex, because you couldn't just tell your perpetrator, "just stop a second. And let me read myself affirmations to myself, and then you can continue raping me." You couldn't do that with, with a predator. And so to have someone that you can be physically intimate with and be like, "hang on just a second. I need to, I need to rub my heart or, you know, I just, I just need to look at my, remind myself of what my present is and not what my past is." I mean, that takes a huge level of, of trust and not just to be like, "you know what, like we haven't had sex in 10 days and I'm just going to power through this so that my significant other feels like I still love him, even though I don't really want to be here."

I mean, I think, I think that goes to show just how very clearly what rape is and what intimacy is. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:07:23] Yeah. I'm really glad you underline that. It's so important, those differences. And it's, you know, not, not having control in a, in a physical experience is terrifying.  I don't know if anybody talked to you about the concept of locus of control? Have you heard that term?

Elizabeth Smart: [00:07:45] I haven't. No. Could you explain it to me?

Wendy Maltz: [00:07:47] Well, it's like when we go through life, we need to feel that, we feel most best when we feel in control of our own experience. So if I'm in my room now and I'm feeling cold, I can turn the heat up. Or if, you know, or put on a sweater. Or if I get out of the room. I have the ability to, to open the door to get out and turned the handle to, to walk out. 

The locus of control is within myself. During abuse, you're robbed of the locus of control. You lose a locus of control, it's the perpetrator. It's an act of dominance, an act of being, something being done to you outside of your control. And that's very scary. I mean you know, a lot of us are scared in an airplane when all of a sudden it drops down, you know, and we have no control over what our experience is or, or in any situation where we lose that. The locus is the place of where control is and we want to make it in love-based sex and, and healthy sexual relating the, you come from a place of feeling in control of your own experience and what is going on at any time. It doesn't mean that you're lording control over the sex with a partner and becoming the one who demands things or, you know, it, it means that you're in control of your own experience, and from that place you can share. And you can interact and you can create together with the partner, like dancing with a partner when you're both feeling in control and you're, you know, ballroom dancing or something, you know, and you're both moving each other around in a way that creates a, a sense of flowing, of beauty.

My husband and I do canoeing together. I just love it. And I love that feeling when we're a little bit challenged and we're needing to work together to guide that canoe, to have the best experience on the water, and focusing our energies together. And so yeah, having that locus of control.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:10:06] Why do you think people are so quick to jump on and blame victims or, I mean, I even remember I went on a date once before I was married. And at the end of the date, the guy looked at me and he's like, "well, you were raped a lot, weren't you?" And I was like, "Okay. Yes, I was." And he's like, "well, did you ever just lay back and enjoy it?" I was like, "what? No! What's wrong with you? Why would you ask such a question?" But

 why? Why do you think there is so much misunderstanding and shame, ignorance, surrounding this topic? I mean, clearly people have been having sex for thousands of years. Why have we not progressed further than where we are, do you think? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:11:03] That sort of gets into areas of socio-political areas, you know, the male domination and influences of things like pornography, and yeah, male domination over females a lot. You know, I wonder what that guy on the date would have fought, you know, had he been in a locker room and several guys you know, jumped him and raped him, you know, if he had, if he had come out of that experience with this, that same kind of stupid comment? You know, an ignorant comment. 

I think that there's a lot where people want to deny the reality of abuse and, and on either male or females, they want to deny how serious it is and the impact, but they're there, it's just their own, own ignorance. And yeah, maybe underlines again, why it's important for survivors of abuse to speak up and say, "this happened to me" or movements like the me too movement, yo tambien movement, you know, to, to say this is something going on in our society and it's really not okay. And we need to stop. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:12:13] I mean, how do you, how do you stop unwanted sexual behaviors?

Wendy Maltz: [00:12:19] Well, you know, survivors often end up with experiencing things that they're not comfortable with in terms of their own behavior with sex. Sometimes they find themselves stuck in a position of avoiding sex at any cost, isolating, living a lifestyle that removes them from the possibility of sex, or just avoiding sex within the context of a relationship. Or sometimes they act out in ways that are, they're, they can be attempts to gain a sense of power and control over sexuality. It's misguided, or it often fails, you know, like to, to go into sex work or promiscuity. I had a period from the abuse I went through when I was younger of being promiscuous and indiscriminate sexually. And I think they're just, you know, they're, it's attempts to try and walk.

You know, that happened to me. I'm not gonna let it happen to me. I'm going to be the one who's doing it and, and making it happen and getting other people to do it with me or whatever. And, but these behaviors can be, you know, can get in the way of progress in terms of sexual healing and stopping them. 

For some addictive type sexual behaviors, it can be important to get in a program, like a 12 step program, or learn about sexual compulsivity and problematic behavior and get support for stopping the behavior. 'Cause it can be self-destructive, it can lead to things like sexually transmitted diseases or, or other harm to one's sexuality.

And that withdrawal can lead to kind of denying oneself the pleasures and beauty of sex, and a wonderful connection that could be felt with a partner. So acknowledging and recognizing that there are these behaviors and getting support, understanding them, and looking in terms of really how you want to be sexually as a sexual how you want your behavior to be, and what's the best way for it to be for you in the world.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:14:34] I mean, how do you even realize if you have a sexual problem?

Wendy Maltz: [00:14:40] Well, they're all different. You mean a problem in terms of withdrawing or avoiding sex or acting out? 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:14:47] Both. Both, I think. I mean, 'cause kind of like what you said I could see. I honestly I could see how you'd go either way very quickly.

I mean, going back to my own story, had I come back older, kind of at a time where maybe it was more expected to jump right into a relationship, I think I would have had a lot of, a lot more problems with it. And I think I probably would have avoided relationships quite a bit because I knew that that would be an expectation and that I wouldn't be able to follow through with it.

So I think that I probably would have avoided. I feel, I feel very fortunate on, on many levels and, but also one of them being that I came back and I was only 15. I was still, I was still young. There wasn't any pressure or immediate rush to jump right into a relationship because I couldn't have done that.

But that being said, I can see why you would maybe want to avoid it. Cause I think I probably would have fallen into that category, but I can also appreciate the other side where you're like, well, I'm going to own this now. And I'm going to go sleep with whoever I want to.

Wendy Maltz: [00:15:49] Yeah. Yeah. And nobody's going to make an object out of me. Right. Instead, whoops, I think I'm making an object out of myself. Yeah. They're really two sides of the same coin because there they're attempts to become empowered. I, I often think of sexual abuse as a way that we're disempowered, and it's an attempt to disempower us in the world and make us afraid to be our full selves.

Sexuality is tied into how we feel about ourselves in terms of our self esteem, and our ability to connect in, in positive and strong ways and with a intimate partner. And, and sexual abuse is like saying, no, you know, this, we're going to do this to you and you won't be able to, to. And so there can be like, attempt to regain power because you know that you, there was an attempt to disempower you in some way.

And but these, these two extremes don't work in the long run. They don't build towards more and more feelings of self-esteem and empowerment. They have negative consequences. You asked, how do you know if you have a sexual problem? Cause you start experiencing negative consequences. You fall in love with somebody and your withdrawal from sex and your aversion to sex gets in the way of your being able to establish a life with them and maybe even have children. Or, you are acting out and you start, you know, having getting illnesses or your sense of your reputation is damaged and, and social life and, and you end up getting exploited in the process and realize that that's happening to you.

The way to kind of move forward from abuse to feel power is to really fully understand what happened to you and to move, to have certain qualities that you want in sexual relating like consent, like a sense of equality, mutual respect, safety, mutual enjoyment. You know, you look for qualities that, that you can put in place.

I have on my website, healthysex.com and also in the book The Sexual Healing Journey, and also in my earlier book, Incest in Sexuality something called the CERTS model. I don't know if you ran across that Elizabeth, but it CE R T S so it's a consent, equality, respect, trust, safety. And I used to tell clients that it's kinda like a, a five way intersection light.

Well, if you get, if it gives green, green, green, green, green, green, for all those, you can go check, check, check, check, we've got consent, or we got an ongoing consent, not just initial consent, but ongoing all the way through, it's got to be there. And you know, equality, respect, trust, safety. Okay. And if you proceed forward, you're going to have positive experiences, that will build self-esteem and, and self assertiveness. So, there, there is a way to become re-empowered and to reclaim sex as a positive experience. But these other actions of either getting stuck and of being adverse, and it's like being stuck in thinking that sex is the same as sexual abuse. You know, it's, that's, it's stuck in that kind of thinking or what happened to me is who I, you know, made me who I am. No. It just happened to you, you know? Oh, so it's just really important to make those distinctions. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:19:54] A term that you mentioned in our last episode that we didn't get the opportunity to explore more, which I'm really curious about, because I had actually never heard of it until you mentioned it, but it's unwanted sexual fantasies.

What, I mean, what are they and how did they affect, how do they affect us?

Wendy Maltz: [00:20:15] Well, you know, I remember, I was speaking at a large survivors' conference and I just, so they were there, there were like, I don't know, maybe five or 800 survivors all in a great big room. When we used to do that. It's, you know, I'd have the convention center and, and I said, okay, how many of you have experienced unwanted sexual fantasies?

And hands went up, hands. And I said, look around. And I swear to God, I was like 80%, 85% of the people in that room had their hands up. And it's like, nobody talks about these, right? But they're really understandable. Our sexuality has, part of our sexuality has to do with the mental associations we make with it and the imagery we have in our minds in relation to it.

And it, there can be like, like we have dreams, a lot of our dreams we enjoy or somewhere just confused about, and, and some are like nightmares. Unwanted sexual fantasies are the confusing, moving into mostly, you know, the nightmarish ones where you find yourself needing, or moving to a fantasy of like a rape scene in order to climax. Or you thinking of an interaction with a perpetrator in order to build arousal. That I think is less common. But scenarios that involve power and control and you know, essentially sexual abuse dynamics can become eroticized. 

Here again, like with the sexual behaviors, they can be kind of, they can be attempts that we have to try and figure this out on our own without really understanding what we're doing. So our it's like the, the dynamics that related to the sexual abuse that are unresolved or unprocessed in, in therapy or on one's own, they can be locked into these sexual abuse sexual fantasies, and the process of going through the stages of arousal, plateau, climax, and resolution, they can be a way of kind of turning and, and, where you engage the fantasy to kind of move you through sex as a way of, because you, the anxiety you have related to the early abuse can get coupled and mixed in with sexual arousal, and some people feel they need their unwanted sexual fantasies in order to climax. They become dependent on them, or dependent. 

And so it can be very upsetting experience these because afterwards you can feel like, yuck. You know, even though I got aroused by that, oh my God, I, why do I have to go to those places and all. Well, it's often unconscious. Kind of crying out, "something is unresolved from the early abuse that you need to pay attention to," and, or "that would be helpful to pay attention to and work out."

And they're usually have to do with feelings of human betrayal and, and neglect and domination and just issues that have to do with the way one was treated in abuse. And just like, if you're doing analyzing a nightmare, you can go, well, what in the, in my life could this be relating to, and you can look at unwanted sexual fantasies and figure them out. And like I said, I wrote a whole chapter on healing unwanted sexual fantasy. I mentioned some in The Sexual Healing Journey, but the book, Private Thoughts: Exploring the Power of Women's Sexual Fantasies goes through a whole process of how you can deal with them. 

You can stop and refocus, kind of sweep them to the side and try and refocus on stimulation. They usually come up when there's a lot of stress and, and that might be getting in the way of sexual functioning anyway. But you can also go deep into them and look, talk them through, like with a therapist to go, what are the human dynamics going on in this fantasy?

I used to do training, a workshop for women on exploring unwanted sexual fantasies. And one woman had this fantasy of being raped by a Nazi cadet. And it upset her so much, you know, understandably. And so we did some processing of it where We did like role playing our, it's not active role play, but it's more like, okay, if the Nazi cadet could speak, what would he be saying? And what would you want to say to him? You know like "why are you doing this?" Or "do you have a sister? Do you have a mother?" Or, you know, "was this something you would want to happen to your sister or mother?" What is, what is going on with it? And as she was exploring, she was going, "oh, the Nazi cadet now that he, he has a lot of traits in common with my father who abused me" and, and then it could be "okay, well, what would you want to say to your father?"

And you know, and, and this dialoguing with the characters from this fantasy or dream, you know active, erotic dream you know, helped this woman. So she, she ended up not having those fantasies anymore because she had like shown a light of understanding on it and then it didn't need to exist. And what are the feelings that need to come out to say the emotions you know, "how could you do this to me when you said you loved me, or you cared about me?" Or "weren't you thinking about how this would affect me" and those kinds of deeper feelings that have to do with human betrayal. 

And so they're very powerful. I think they're really, sexual fantasies are way overlooked in terms of their psychological healing potential. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:26:51] I mean, that is so interesting. I've, I mean, I've never, I just, I've been so ignorant to that, and that is so interesting to hear about it and learn about it even just in this brief little couple of minutes that we've talked about it and to learn that there are so many, I mean, 85% of the room raising their hands. That's incredible. And I think, I guess for me, I feel like that just further illustrates how once again, just how, how important it is to have like really total body mind, emotional, body healing, because that, I mean, that's, I don't it just for me, I feel like that illustrates it so clearly that you need to address all three.

You can't just say, oh, you know, one and done I'm good and expect, you know, life to never have a hiccup again. Or maybe a mountain might be more than a hiccup. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:27:52] Oh, right, right. Yeah. Our sexuality functions on so many levels and that's what makes it so miraculous when it's connected and loving and, and a beautiful thing that's shared with a partner.

It's like, whoa, I, I know sometimes, you know, after really positive, sexual experience where your heart is open in your, you and your partner, just feel like really you've been washed up on a shore of pleasure from pleasure. You know, it's like, boy, if everybody in the world experienced this there'd be no war. People couldn't go to if they experienced this on a regular basis, you know, it's just too beautiful with the human interaction. So it can have that because it is so rich on so many levels and, and involves our self getting as close as we can to somebody we really care about and, or, or feeling the beauty of our own bodies and our connection to nature.

Nature goes through cycles that I think are very similar to, that are similar to the sexual response cycle. Like a flower that starts out as a bud and then opens up and then opens all the way and releases its scent. And then the pedals drop off, that's like, you know, like, like the desire, arousal, and then plateau, the orgasms, the releasing of the scent and the pedals falling off like the refractory stage afterglow. And in storms that the clouds that build up moisture, and then finally it reaches a point where to sigh, you know, this wonderful rain comes down. And you can create new associations that go with the sexual response cycle and, and you know, that show the beauty of sex as it's connected to nature and connected to good relationships. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:29:57] And I feel that just kind of leads me into sort of our last topic for today, but how healthy sexuality can also be a way to heal trauma, not just, not just how sex therapy can be a way to be able to function and have sex, but it can also heal you as a person. Is, is that correct? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:30:25] Yeah. When you reclaim your sexuality, you reclaim yourself.

You know, that's, that's the area, that's the part that was attacked. That's the part that was targeted for attack. And when you, when you go, no, you know, I'm creating it to be the way I want it to be in. And I'm taking back this incredible gift and I'm owning it and I'm going to do with it what I want to do with it.

And you know, then that sense of personal power and beauty is, is there. And yeah, so I, I think it's an avenue for deep healing from sexual abuse. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:31:07] Do you feel like many survivors make it to that point or do do a lot of them make it there? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:31:17] When they want to make it there and when they're committed to that, yeah, a lot of them do. I think, I don't think it's an easy thing to do, and I don't think it's an easy thing to do when there's been long-term trauma, and often in cases of extreme trauma, I think it's can be especially challenging. But when a person wants it and, you know and, and pursues it, I think there's, they can, can accomplish a lot.

And it's, I always say love is stronger than abuse. You know, the, the connection and you know, here I am, I'm just in my early seventies. And I remember when I used to talk about my own abuse and in the early years, it just brought up all these feelings, but I'll tell you, with the experiences I went to the past, I've gotten to a stage of filling that file that we talked about, closing the file on abuse and opening a new file of wonderful experiences with, with physical intimacy and connection. And my file is just so rich and full and thick, you know, I have difficulty actually remembering how much pain I had in relation to my sexuality in my early years, because it's like, that was like another lifetime or, you know, I, I feel for who I was at that earlier, younger age and what she went through and all the confusion she had and all the pain and all the, you know, flashbacks and the memories and this and that.

And it's like, but now it's like, it's a little harder to access because this other file is so full and rich, so it can be done. But, you know, I also honor everybody, everybody has to make their own choices and some people are more committed to a process like this than others. Some people have a lot of good supports that are there.

And one of the, you know, of cautions in terms of pursuing sex therapy is find a therapist who is familiar with sexual healing from sexual abuse, because some of these therapists, the whole process of sex therapy can be almost, like recreate some of the dynamics of like abuse. Like, do these exercises. I'm going to tell you what to do, I'm the authority.

And okay, now we're going to talk about sex, and they don't get it. You know, some of the therapists don't get it, but the ones who are "you're in the driver's seat, I've got some information. I've got some resources. You let me know what you want to do. We can, you know, move forward on this." That's a therapist with more of that kind of attitude is much better to go to so that you don't get retriggered by the process of even looking at sexual healing.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:34:20] I think that is such an important point to make. I mean, all of the survivors that I've personally been reached out to by, and the foundation has been reached out to by, I mean, not even specifically in regards to sex therapy, but just therapy as a whole they'll say, "oh, I've tried it. It's not working." And I feel like since we've started doing this podcast, I've been on this, honestly, I feel like it's almost a straight up trajectory of learning. But there are so many different modalities of therapy. There's so many different kinds, and, and it's not even just the kind, it's then finding the right person to walk you, through to help guide you through. I mean, it's just been incredible.

And so I so appreciate that point that, you know, you have to find the right therapist for you. Just because they practice a certain kind of therapy, it doesn't mean that they're the right fit for you. It might be the right therapy, but the wrong person. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:35:15] People will go to with six therapist if they're encountering a specific problem, like difficulty having an orgasm or feelings of lack of sexual desire, or pain with intercourse, or ejaculatory difficulty, or premature ejaculation, those kinds of things. But with survivors, what I found is a lot of those problems, they're functional. Our sex problems can be functional for a survivor. And you take, should I take a moment to explain all that?

Like if having an orgasm, one woman described how, when she had an orgasm, she got a flashback of her original abuse. Okay. So not having an orgasm, you know, can be a good thing, right? To protect yourself from having that it, that it's, that it was connected to the original abuse until she could work through the other psychological issues related to the original abuse then, and we can talk out issues of what is an orgasm and what does it mean? You know, things like that. 

It, it made sense that she had difficulty with reaching orgasm and one young man I worked with, he climaxed very quickly. And, and so we explored, he was a survivor. "What, what comes up for you when you have lasted longer?" He says, "I feel like I'm raping my, my partner" and it's like, okay, it's understandable you'd climax quickly. Yeah. You're protecting yourself from that association. And until we could work through, you know, the he could work through, well what is, what are those feelings about and what is it and you know about that's unresolved from his own abuse that was getting in the way that needed to be worked through. It made sense he was having that reaction. 

And a lot of the standard sex therapy techniques for treating sex specific problems. They can be too much, too soon, and too sexual. And the, the skills that you can learn in the, through the Relearning Touch exercises of being able to breathe and stop and handle automatic reactions and be more present and communicate feelings and redirect what's going on.

Those are all very important skills to have in doing any of the standard sex therapy techniques. And they've got to be, you know, more important than anything, actually, that reinforcing the feeling of you're in the driver's seat. You're in control of what's going on, and slow down, reapproach, find a new way, find a creative way to move forward, try and figure out what's going on. If there's some psychological feeling that hasn't been expressed or needs to come out that it's pointing to and dealing with that, that's all very important part. You can't just go to a sex therapist and say, "help me be able to have an orgasm," you know, or yeah. So yeah, it's an interesting area, but it, meanwhile, those problems, even though they're the sex problems can be functional, they can also be a pain in the butt, you know, because they're getting in the way of, of sexual enjoyment.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:38:42] Well, thank you so much, Wendy. You've just, you've been so insightful and I feel like my education has just once again, gone straight up during this episode with you, I appreciate so much what you have to share and to teach us. And I just want to, where can our listeners find your books if they'd like to learn more?

Wendy Maltz: [00:39:04] Well, I have information about my work and books and lots of free materials on my website, healthysex.com. 

And I've got a new book that just came out, I'm so excited about. This is El Viaje Para Sanar la Sexualidad. This is The Sexual Healing Journey finally got put out in, by Harper Collins, Mexico, in Spanish. And I know there are a lot of Spanish speaking survivors and what a tough thing, wouldn't it be to have to go to a therapist or read a resource, not in your own native language, you know, and how we need to hear the words of comfort and support and how to, how to recover in our own language. So I'm excited about that.

And I also have then my book, The Sexual Healing Journey. This is the, in the English version, a guide for survivors of sexual abuse. That's you can learn more about the book, all my books at healthysex.com. And also I have free videos there that you can watch, the Relearning Touch Exercises. And there's also a really old one called Partners in Healing. You'll see me with the brown hair and I look like a teenager. And then especially the Relearning Touch Techniques video, if there's one to watch, that would be the one because it shows a lot of the exercises in The Sexual Healing Journey. And that is a book that does have illustrations of the exercises. And you can watch that on my website and it's also through YouTube. 

And then I have charts on the difference between healthy sex and abuse, or addiction related sex, and lots of free articles and materials. I'm very, I'm going to upgrade the website in several months. So it will also, you know, be a whole section on focusing specifically on sexual recovery from sexual abuse. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:41:10] Well, thank you so much. And that sounds like a, a great resource. So if you've listened today's episode and you're curious to learn more, you want to learn more, go check out healthysex.com and see what Wendy has put up there, because it sounds incredibly useful. So thank you so much for your work and for spending time with me today. 

And I just, I just want to take a second and personally speak to all the survivors out there. I don't think, and this is just words from me, which mean nothing, but I don't think life is meant to just be survived. I think it's also meant to be enjoyed. And I think it's also meant to be happy. And I mean, I can only speak for myself, but I do think that having healthy sexuality can only lead to a greater happiness and a greater enjoyment. And whether that's, you know, with your partner or just with yourself, I think it's something that you should take care of, to enjoy life, to work to be happy.

So it is not something to be ashamed of or embarrassed of. I wouldn't be talking about it if I was ashamed or embarrassed of it. It might be an awkward conversation because it's not, it doesn't come up in everyday conversation, but maybe it should, and maybe today will be that starting point for you.

So thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you again so much, Wendy, and we'll all see you next time on our next episode of Smart Talks.