SHOW NOTES

Visit Wendy’s website, www.healthysex.com.

Order Wendy’s book mentioned often throughout the interview, The Sexual Healing Journey.

Order Wendy’s book mentioned at various points of the interview, Private Thoughts: Exploring the Power of Women's Sexual Fantasies.

View information on Wendy’s other books here.

Watch Wendy’s video, Relearning Touch: Healing Techniques for Couples, for free.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth Smart: [00:00:00] Welcome to Smart Talks. For the next few episodes, we're going to focus on a question I get asked a lot. So, many survivors come to me with questions about how to move forward with healthy relationships and specifically sex, physical intimacy, after being abused or assaulted. I think this topic is so important, but I recognize that I can't answer these questions all on my own.

That's why for the month of July, we are going to interview therapists and survivors who have experience in this field. As we do this, I hope that many of you are able to connect with new tools for healing or think of new ways to advocate for survivors and for yourself, and for your own sexuality. If you feel uncomfortable with this topic or are triggered by these topics, feel free to skip the next month and come back to us in August.

[00:01:20] Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am Elizabeth Smart, and today I am so excited to be here speaking with a sex therapist named Wendy. She has many years of experience, and this is a topic that's really important to me because especially over the last few years, I have had so many survivors reaching out to me saying, "how do you, how are you married, first of all, but second of all, how do you have sex after you've been raped? I can't, I'm struggling so much with this. I've had failed relationship after failed relationship because I, I get triggered and I don't want to have sex. How do you tell your partner? I don't understand this."

And this has just been such a common question that I've gotten. I felt like we needed a whole, whole episode, whole multiple episodes on this topic because I feel like it is so common and that there is such a need for it to be talked about, and there's a lot of misunderstanding surrounding this. I mean, only a couple of weeks ago we received the question, " I am being eaten up by guilt. I had an orgasm while I was raped and I can't stand myself anymore." And. It just, it, it broke my heart that she was feeling so guilty for her body's reaction to what happened to her. That doesn't, I just wanted her to know it wasn't, it's not a reflection on her. It didn't make the rape okay. 

Anyway, so thank you so much, Wendy, for being here today. Kind of to give a little background of yourself, do you mind just giving some of your work history and some of your training and how you got started in this field? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:03:01] Sure. Well, I'm happy to be here, Elizabeth, and be able to share some information with people which hopefully will be helpful for these very difficult issues like you described.

My name is Wendy Maltz, and I'm the author of the book The Sexual Healing Journey, a Guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse. And if you can believe it, it was first written in 1991. So that makes it like 30 years old or something. And I'm retired now, but I, I started out in Berkeley, California. I was a director of a women's center there and we did Take Back the Night  marches and I became a therapist and started working with survivors and it was really interesting. This was back in the seventies, I noticed that you know, I got interested in the field of sex therapy. So after I got my degrees, psych I became a sex therapist. And when I was working with people, a lot of times the sex therapy techniques that were, that I had learned did not work on a certain set of people that I saw. And those turned out to be survivors. The exercises were too much, too soon, and too sexual, and I realized that survivors of sexual abuse need something very different, from standard sex therapy, they need a whole, a whole approach that's more within their control and, and slower, and that approaches things with a, an undertow, understanding and sensitivity to what they've been through in terms of having their sexuality harmed through sexual assault, abuse, rape, molestation. 

And so I'm a survivor myself and I I knew from personal experience the kind of consequences that could happen from, that can happen from sexual assault. And so I started researching that area and developing a specialty in it. My first book was called Incest and Sexuality: a Guide to Understanding and Healing, and that was kind of for therapists and for survivors. But then I went on and did the book, the Sexual Healing Journey, and it's gone through quite a number of revisions and changes over the years and updates. Well, actually, not a whole lot. I mean, some things were updated, but the interesting thing about the book is it contains a lot of principles that have to do with what happened, the nature of what happened to you and what you need to do to reclaim your sexuality in a new way, in a healthy way for yourself.

So I had a 40 year career as a therapist, a sex and relationship therapist. I did a whole bunch of other books. I did a couple poetry anthologies, Intimate Kisses and Passionate Hearts. And that was sort of some healing for me, 'cause I was hearing, you know, a lot of the trauma stories and and all that. I wanted to be able to show what healthy love-based sex, the beauty of it. I also wrote a book on sexual fantasies that has a whole chapter on healing unwanted fantasies, which is a common repercussion of sexual abuse that people struggle with. And it's really a fascinating topic. Maybe we can talk more about it a little later, Elizabeth. And then I, that's called Private Thoughts: Exploring the Power of Women's Sexual Fantasies. 

And then my husband, Larry, and I did a a book. He was also, he's also a therapist and we're both retired. And we did a book called the Porn Trap, which is the essential guide to healing from problems caused by pornography. And that, that also interweaves with sexual abuse, cause a lot of times people get into porn because of sexual abuse or sexual abuse pornography was part of their sexual abuse. 

So yeah, I've, you know, I've done a lot and other than that, I love art. I love canoeing, you know, I you have a family and you know, I'm a grandma now and I, I have, for some reason, I've had a very strong belief that it's just really unfair if people don't who, you know, if we go through sexual abuse and were denied the pleasures of love-based healthy sexuality, it just, it's always riled me up. And I think everybody deserves a healthy positive sex life. It's one of the gifts that we have as humans. And there really is a way out of this. You know, if you're struggling there, there's new understandings you can come to. And then there are exercises and ways of approaching sex and new ways, which opens up this area to you. And, and a lot of healing can take place and you can feel empowered and strong and you even recover more from the abuse when you deal with the sexual issues. But it's a tough area and it's not an early area to do, and healing from abuse, it's more advanced work. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:08:47] So starting right at the beginning, one of, I think it'd be fair to say, kind of one of the common questions or misunderstandings is, what is the difference between rape and sex?

Wendy Maltz: [00:09:05] Huge difference. I know that it involves similar body parts and, and sometimes similar responses, but it, it is just they're worlds apart. Rape is an attack on a person's sexuality. Sex is used as it is, sex is seen as a target by the rapist, and sex is, is weaponized. It's a, it's a power assault, it's domination, power and exploitation and control over another person. It's an invasion of the body. 

Love-based sex is very different. It's has to do with a sharing, and a joining in through a mutual desire and mutual pleasure. And, it's, so they're worlds apart, but it's, it can be difficult to see that, especially if the abuse happened at an early age or was a formative experience and the, the victim didn't have a previous experiences with sex to know how different it could be from rape.

So rape is an act of violence and domination, control. Love-based sex is like I said, an act of sharing and, and exploring, and creativity, and mutual pleasure. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:10:29] And when a victim first comes into you or a survivor, first comes into you, I, I feel like I've come across this and I'm not a therapist at all. I don't have any therapy training or anything. But, like, I still receive a lot of comments on the topic and they say, "in my mind, I can understand it. Like I understand in my mind that it is a dominant and act of power, an act of dominance, but when I, you know, then try to engage in sex with my partner or my spouse or, or whomever, I can't stop how I feel."

Why is it such a challenge for survivors to not only understand it mentally, but also emotionally? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:11:15] Well, the act of sexual relating, there are a lot of thoughts, feelings, sensations, and it's, you know, it's a, it's a full body mind experience. And so when there are unresolved issues from the abuse, or when, when a person hasn't done a lot of work on their abuse and on healing sexually, it's very likely that they're going to be triggers, triggered by a particular sensation or just looking at a particular body part or having a body part, you know, a private body part touched. And so they, they can automatically go into a flashback to the abuse. These are called automatic reactions to touch. Even talking about sex can be triggering for a lot of survivors, just today's topic, you know? That we're talking, I mean, it's understandable if this is difficult for you, the, and that's why, you know, it took a whole book to kind of lay out the different stages.

Sexual healing involves a comprehensive approach. You do start out with just separating, you know, abuse and sex, even intellectually and cognitively. Cause you've got to have a sense of what you're moving towards is not a recreation or of abuse. It's something, it's totally new territory. So getting that intellectually and, and also you've got, there's early stages of understanding and coming to understand that your own personal sexuality is different from how you were treated in the abuse. Victims, survivors of abuse often feel things like my sexuality is bad, or I'm damaged goods, or I'm just an object. And these kinds of beliefs can really get in the way of moving towards healthy sexuality and, and feeling that they're at fault or that they caused this or something about their body caused this.

And really it, abuse really has nothing to do with the victim. The assault, rape, that's just, that is a sickness inside the head of the perpetrator. And the perpetrator's all screwed up in their sexuality. And you don't need clinical terms, you know, it's just, let's lay it out how it is. They're really messed up sexually. And it's that, they're the problem. They carry the shame. Not you. You know, you happened to be there, happened to be the one, be a person at that time who was abused, or within a family where there was a perpetrator, but it's not you. And you're set, there's nothing wrong or bad about your sexuality. It was misused.

It was attacked. But you're okay. And your sexuality is okay. And any response you had during the abuse, you were talking earlier, Elizabeth, about the person who wrote in about having an orgasm. An orgasm is a way of reducing stress and assaults are very stressful and it, it's not connected to anything. Now you can reclaim the experience of having an orgasm as something delightful and positive and connecting with new images that are associated with it, new experiences.

 I think a lot of times as survivors, what's difficult is they, they think, oh, I've talked to a therapist about this, or, oh, I've read a book on sexual abuse. And they think their sexuality should be healed from that. But no, it's it, sexual healing is a, tends to be a slower process and it's, it takes time and it takes a lot of new learning on an intellectual as well as a physical level. So the way sex is approached needs to be different. So you'll run into problems if you just kind of say, "You know, I can do this" and then you go and, you know tell your partner you're ready when you're really not ready.

And so, and if you haven't developed skills, like being able to, to stop and kind of refocus and to talk through feelings or to emote and cry and feel the sadness. If, if you experienced something beautiful in, in sex with a partner today, and, but, but you start crying because of the, the pain of what you went through you need, you need a safe place where you can process feelings and a safe partner with whom you can as well.

And so it's, I think people do try to do too much too soon without really understanding what's going on and why they're having the reactions they're having, and without honoring, honoring yourself and, and seeing those reactions as self-protective, and it's like, it's okay if you shut down or you stop, or, you know, there are ways of coming back to it with more understanding and in a way where you do feel safe over time.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:16:54] I feel like this is such an important topic, I mean, for so many reasons. And one of them being that I, I do think that sex is an important part of relationships, marriage, long-term commitments, relationships in general. I'll just leave it at that. And It's not talked about a whole lot. I think there are a lot, a lot of survivors out there who really don't know how to navigate these waters.

I mean, nobody really talked to me about it. It was more like trial and error as, you know, I progressed through my relationship, got married, you know, eventually went on and had my three kids with my husband. But I mean, first of all, I, you know, have to give credit to my husband cause he's always been wonderful.

But that being said he did not come, he didn't have any knowledge or understanding or he didn't know how to react going forward. And I think I feel a lot of compassion for these other partners out here, these significant others of these survivors, because if they've never experienced sexual trauma or abuse than a lot of times, they really, they really have no clue what's going on and they don't know how to help.

And they might, you know, they, they love their partners deeply, but they, they don't know what to do, but, they still, you know, they still want sex. They still want to be intimate with their partners, but they are being shut down or they don't understand what's going on. How can we help include them in this conversation?

How can maybe survivors explain to them what's going on? I feel like communication is probably lacking on a lot of fronts and certainly this is one of those. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:18:40] Well, you know, this is one of the reasons why I wrote books on this was so people could have resources to look at and to gain, to become educated in this area.

There's lots of information on healing as I think there's a whole chapter in the Sexual Healing Journey on healing as an intimate partner, healing with your intimate partner. And, you know, but for a partner to learn all about, okay, what are the common effects of abuse, the full range of, of effects on, you know, and then gain skills for how to approach sex in new ways. Being able to go slow, allow the partner, allow the survivor to be in control, to stop and communicate and not take over and not pressure and not, and not confront, and not accuse. You know, like, "why don't you love me? Why can't you do this?" Or you know, or thinking, "oh, I must not be attractive because she does she or he, the survivor, doesn't want to have sex with me." And that's not the issue. It's that's really an ignorance about what you're dealing with here. 

So you, as a team, you know, I call it partners in healing. You as a team can approach sex together when you're educated and know what you're dealing with. And you wouldn't, you know, decide to pick up a pair of skis and go down a slope without having any instruction, you know, and any knowledge of how to, what is it, hold your knees together or something a little bit, you know, and how to stop and, and how to move in different directions, you know?

You need a lot of knowledge to approach this as a couple to succeed. And the partners are victims of the, of the sexual abuse too, even though they're not, weren't there at the time. The, what the perpetrator did, had a, an impact on the person they love and care about and want to be sexually close with. And so it, they're they were victimized too, in a way you could, could look at and but you can through knowledge become empowered and learn the skills. And there are ways of approaching it together and you even can come out feeling closer. 

You and your husband are really lucky, you know, that you you, you went through this without that kind of knowledge, just kind of trusting your own instincts and, and it sounds like communicating well with each other and having your, I would imagine Elizabeth, that the love and the caring you have for each other, saw you, you know, through a lot because you were kind to each other and, and that sort of thing. But a lot of people through, couples through ignorance, they really get off the mark. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:21:42] No, I, I certainly am lucky. He is, he is wonderful and kind. Almost going backwards, but in this same conversation in the same topic, I have a lot of victims ask me, "is it always necessary for me to share my trauma with my partner? Or at what stage should I share what happened with them?" I grew up in a conservative religion and there were all those feelings of shame and guilt. And even though I didn't choose to be raped I certainly have felt those feelings of being damaged goods, or if people really know what happened, then they wouldn't want me.

And I remember, I mean, it's really sad because I thought that if I didn't come out and say that I was raped, people wouldn't know that I was raped. Given that I was gone for nine months, I think it's safe to assume that probably most everyone jumped to the conclusion that I had been sexually abused. And it honestly took me a long time to kind of come to terms with the fact that everybody knew that.

And it honestly wasn't really, even until I heard what my captors were being charged with, and initially it wasn't anything sexual. And I remember thinking, well, that was one of the things that was most painful. Why aren't they being charged with that? So, and that was kind of when I was like, I don't care anymore. I'm going to talk about it. And this affected me, it's affected my life. And so I want to help other people who have gone through that. And so coming back to that question, at what point would you generally say, and is it always necessary, to share whether or not you've been sexually traumatized in your life? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:23:18] I think had they have beginning of a relationship is, I think it's good to share some information. I always say, share in safety and in steps. So you can share to different degrees about things that happen. I don't recommend people go into the details of extreme trauma and, and abuse right away with a partner in the early stages. But to be able to say, you know, some things happened to me that were very upsetting and, and, and I did experience you know, an attack on my sexuality, or I experienced some very unpleasant experiences sexually. And so you can talk, speaking in general terms and then say, well, as we get to know each other, I can share, share more, but you know, so, you know, and be able to say what you need, so I need to go slow or I don't, you know, I'd like to get to know you better before we're sexual or some and, and put out what your needs are, given that the experiences that you went through.

And it's good for honor, for new partners to accept that and work towards creating safety and trust. So that things can be shared, but you brought up an interesting point. I always kind of thought of the shame that goes with sexual abuse like a hot potato. And you know, like I always pictured the hot potato wrapped in foil for some reason. It's like, you know, no, you take this, you take it, well, perpetrators don't take the, they don't hold it. It's theirs, but you know, and the society doesn't hold it onto the, onto the perpetrator. And it's our society's done things of blaming the victim. Oh, you shouldn't be there, have been there at that time, or you shouldn't, you know your, your experience Elizabeth, it goes to show it has nothing to do with where you are when, or what you look like, or, and, you know, you, this, this happened in, in what should have been the most private, safe place for any person and you know, that it really shows that it's, it's the sickness of the, of the perpetrator that is going on. And so to be able to say, I'm a sexual abuse survivor, and, you know, I was date raped, personally, that's, that I'm sharing that. And that was in college and the guy was, he was a, a law student.

Now I cringe when I think that, gosh, isn't that crazy, but at the time I kind of blamed myself because I was, I had drunk a lot when we went out, and went to his place voluntarily. But you know, that so often, so it took me a while to really accept that that was rape. And but these kinds of misunderstandings can go on that can get in the way of healing.

And anyway, that, yeah, don't blame yourself. I guess that's the main message and put the shame where it belongs and, and it's okay, to, I think the more of us that who admit what we went through and, and share, the easier it is for other people to say, yeah, I was sexually abused.  

Elizabeth Smart: [00:26:46] Yeah. So a lot of, I mean, kind of the things that I'm picking up and telling me, tell me if I'm wrong, but a lot of it is don't be ashamed to be, I mean, you can be as vague as you want. You don't necessarily need to say details, but at the beginning of the relationship, really set boundaries and say, "you know, something happened to me. So don't think this is like a reflection on me being attracted to you or me not being interested in you. I just need to take it slower. And as we get to know each other, you know, I'll feel more comfortable in sharing what happened" or that kind of thing. And then really take it at your own pace. And as your relationship grows, then maybe your level of trust and openness grows as well. Is that correct? Did I understand that correctly? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:27:30] That sounds great. Yeah. It's, the sexual abuse is not who you are. It's something that happened to you. It doesn't define who you are. It doesn't define your sexuality. It's something that happened to you, like being in a car accident, just boom, you know, and so to, to make that difference. And also to be able, I like the, a survivor said, "that was the then, this is the now." That might be a good thing to embroider and put on your wall or something. That was the then this is the now, the, and that's it. It happened to me. It's not who I am. And those distinctions are critical for moving forward and not taking on that hot potato of shame.

It didn't, never belonged to you. It doesn't belong to you. And yeah, so, you know, I was raped. Okay. I was also attacked. Once on campus by a man who came out of the bushes with his pants down and threw me up against a tree to, to assault me, to rape me. And I hit him with a book I was carrying, which was Gandhi's Last Truth, a book on nonviolence.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:28:49] I think that book was put to excellent use. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:28:53] And I yelled at this guy "you're sick, you're sick, you're sick." I'm, you know, I'm hitting him on the head with this textbook. And, um, and, but it wasn't until some people came on the, I was overpowered and it wasn't until some people started up on the path that he, he let go of me and ran away.

And I went back to, this was University of Colorado. I write about this in The Sexual Healing Journey, but I went back to the University of Colorado to give a presentation there. And I went back to that path. And they had cleared all the, the brush, you know, and they had call boxes on both ends of the, this pathway through the woods. And it was really neat to see the changes that had happened. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:29:40] Yeah. That's great.

Wendy Maltz: [00:29:41] Since then. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:29:42] Making safe a place that maybe wasn't so safe.

Wendy Maltz: [00:29:46] Yeah. So, but it's not our fault what happened to us, you know, and it isn't, you know, and it happened to our bodies. Yeah. Okay. It happened to our private parts. Okay. Well, that's the nature of the type of car accident we experienced. Okay. But that doesn't mean that there's anything bad or wrong about those parts or that they can't experience positive connection, loving connection, and be beautiful and be wonderful. 

I remember there's one survivor I counseled, she felt really bad because this, the, the molestation and, and sex, sexual, and rape, she experienced as a young, in her teens. She felt like it denied her being a virgin. And so, you know, I encouraged her to think about that and think if there was some way she could reclaim her virginity for herself, you know, and she came back the next session and said, I went out and I got a bottle of extra virgin olive oil, and I put a tablespoon or two in my bath and I took a bath and you know, now, you know, and it's like, she she said, now I'm a virgin, you know, it was just really you know, it was adorable, but it's that, you know, using your, one's own creativity, you just say, yeah, I can, I can reclaim that, you know? 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:31:13] Yeah. I think I felt similar. Similar feelings to her. I think I definitely felt a sense of being let down that I wasn't a virgin after. I mean, cause I was first, I mean, I was raped before I'd ever had sex with anybody and I definitely felt those feelings and certainly again, I mean, once I had been rescued, I, I still felt those feelings like, you know, maybe when I have sex with my future husband, I won't feel as, it, maybe it won't feel as special as it would have otherwise because I'm not a virgin anymore.

And then as time went by, instead of looking at it that way, I mean, for me personally, I was like, well, you know what? I might actually enjoy sex on my wedding night because it won't be painful. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:32:06] Wow. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:32:06] Yeah, and so that's kind of how I changed my perspective on it. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:32:12] And you, you know, people who were experienced abuse as their first experience of sex, at that, you know, when we're making these distinctions between sexual abuse and sex, it's like you are still in, in that, in that sense of, the rape was violence, the trauma, that's, that's trauma and violence, that's not sex. So in, to come to sex with a partner who you care about when it's within one's control and choice, and there's a relationship already established and kindness shared and beauty in it. It can be a very nurturing, beautiful experience of giving oneself to that type of bodily experience.

And it, it is you know, that, that same beauty. That we imagine that could be there with first sex can be there. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:33:17] So one of my next questions is when does, when is the best time for sex therapy, sexual healing to take place? I mean, is it something that, you know, we'll just use me for example. You know, I was kidnapped raped 14, 15 years old.

Is that something that you would consider starting right away? I actually remember when I got home, I did not have positive thoughts in my mind about sex. I remember just thinking, "I never want to do that again." I mean, at one point during my kidnapping, my captor had actually said to me cause I, I bit him. He had tried to stick his tongue in my mouth. And there wasn't, I mean, I don't have teeth in my vagina, otherwise it would have been in there too, but he tried to stick his tongue in my mouth and I bit him and he pulled back and he was so angry with me and he said, "you know, if you ever do that again, you know, I'll never have sex with you again. And you'll be the most miserable woman in the world." And I was like, "that sounds great. Let's let's never do this again." Of course that didn't last for longer than like two seconds. 

But then when I got home, I remember actually talking to my dad and just being like, "I never want to have sex. Like, I, I have no interest in it. I never want to have it." And my dad was like, "it's okay that you feel that way, Elizabeth. But you know, like when you get older and when you find someone you love, you might come to feel differently." He's like, "it is, it is a part of relationships and, you know, you might change your, your mind as time passes." And I remember just back then thinking, I will never change my mind. I'm happily married and sex is a part of my relationship now. But I'm just curious if it's you know, a teenager, a younger child who has had some form of rape or sexual trauma in their lifetime, at what point in their life would you recommend starting some kind of sexual therapy or healing?

Wendy Maltz: [00:35:16] I'm struck by your story with your father to, so I'm just thinking how wonderful that you had such a terrific dad. I wish all, you know, I mean, that's, kind of the experience that is what victims need right after they were abused to be told that, it's a, sex is different and what your experience wasn't what love loving sex is.

And even though you weren't, you didn't really want to hear it and you wouldn't even want anything to do with sex, which is totally understandable at that time. Just know, him being able to kindly, you know, validate what you were experiencing and, and let you know that it can be different, that that opens a gateway you were able to travel through at a later time in your life. And that is just, that's just terrific. So I know Father's Day, we just had recently and, you know, I mean, what a, what a great dad to have for a girl who went through a really tough experience. So I'm really touched by that. 

But in terms of when sex therapy, see sex therapy and dealing with sex, you can do it in different, in different stages, like I said, and, and making those distinctions between getting a good attitude or even a good, like possible attitude about sex is early stage you can do after abuse, but the actual work on like learning new approaches to touch and, or dealing with sexual problems, that's, it's good to wait till you can learn about it, but, you know, see, you have to like tune in to what feels right.

If you're starting to have curiosity about sex and you want, you have a sense that this could be different for me. And I think I've kind of, you know, overlapped abuse with, with sex in general. And I think I might be denying myself something, and I think I might be a, you know, an or, or you're starting to feel some anger.

"I don't like it, that that abuse took away my ability to have a, feel good about being in a relationship. I'm, I want to do something about it." Those are often signs that you're ready to kind of focus on sexuality more directly. And if you're in a loving relationship and you're just going, " I feel really sad that I can't, that it's difficult for me to be closer or more passionate or get into sex more, feel more free in sex." You know, those are all, all signs that you're ready to, to work on sex or intimate touch more specifically. 

But at first things like just getting to safety and just dealing with the, you know, it wasn't my fault. And my, and I have a right to healthy sexuality, and, you know, those early things are, are you know, need to be steps need to be accomplished are, better be accomplished first. Because sexual therapy, you're talking about sex a lot there's touch and that can re-trigger, and you know, like I said, flashbacks or thoughts of the abuse, and you've gotta be prepared for that and how to handle that and ready to handle that. So... 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:38:49] Would you say that going through sex therapy is best done when you have an intimate partner or does it not matter? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:39:00] I don't think it matters. I think you can do a lot just with feeling comfortable, if you're single  or dating, feeling comfortable in your own body, learning about healthy sex.

There are some of the relearning touch exercises that are described in The Sexual Healing Journey. They have to do with just being present with your own sensuality. Like there's one called "sensory basket," where you just kind of sitting in a chair with a basket of things that you've gathered like an orange or, a soft piece of cloth or piece of wood that's smooth, things that are sensual and delightful, and you're just kind of paying attention and breathing and relaxing and being present with interacting with the object and enjoying the sensuality of it. Walking on the beach. Yeah. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:39:55] And is that, when you say touching the objects, is it just touching it in your hand or is it like rubbing it on your body or whatever? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:40:02] Yeah. That's really whatever you feel. I mean, I, initially the exercise is about touching it in your hand or smelling it. But you know, certainly, if it's like, whoa, what would this be like to rub on my body or to, you know, to, to just, it's, it's being in your body and feeling, and you can get some of that from doing like yoga, learning yoga, and meditation, or having massage with somebody who's trained to work with survivors. And, you know, start with massage with your clothes on or clothes mostly on.

But it's, it's breathing being relaxed, being present, able to communicate, able to stop sensation and then start. So things like that you can do on your own and to be, you know, more prepared for being with a partner when that does happen later on. And then when you're with a partner it's good when you're with a partner who is ready and committed to doing this process with you. It was always more difficult when I was counseling couples and the partner had the, the, the attitude of, "well, go fix yourself, go to a therapist and get all sexually healed." And it's like, I don't think it works like that.

You know, it's like sexual abuse is a betrayal of human trust and connection. And" there's a whole relearning trust slowly with another person that's got to go on. And so it always worked best when the partners were like, well what can I read? What can I learn? And how's the best way for me to be when we're approaching exercises together?" And you know, that they have that commitment. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:41:53] So maybe if your partner is unwilling to go through this process with you, maybe you should reconsider your partner. 

Wendy Maltz: [00:42:02] That's okay, and yeah. Although, you know, there are a lot of partners who are just plain ignorant. They don't, like you said earlier, they don't get it. They don't have a life experience that this is like. And I remember one partner came in, he said, "well, I was thinking, you know, I'm trying to understand what this would have been like." It's like, well, he was a bay, a baseball player. 

And he said, "well, I guess if when I first started to play baseball someone had thrown a ball and it smashed into my face, I don't know if I'd want to get on now up there with the bat, you know, ready to have another ball thrown at me to, to hit" and, you know, and his, his wife, who's the survivor, you know, she's nodding her head. "Yeah. That was what it was like, and you keep telling me to get up there and bat," you know, and yeah.

And someone, I remember there was another couple and it was like, okay, the survivor said to her partner, "what's your favorite ice cream?" And he said chocolate. She said, "okay. And you really, I, you know, you really love that chocolate ice cream don't you? And it's really pleasurable?" And he goes, "yeah." "okay. Now imagine that your first experience of chocolate ice cream with somebody taking the cone and shoving it note up your nose."

And he goes, she said, "would chocolate ice cream be your favorite ice cream? And wouldn't it be a pity because you love chocolate ice cream so much, you know?" And, and so it's trying to find ways to educate a partner. This is real. This is, was impacted on a physiological, a psychological, emotional level, on sensory level.

And, and there's kind of that, that's kind of slow down and say, okay, "I think I might just stick my little finger in the bowl of chocolate ice cream and lick at a little, take my time with and just go, okay, that really is delicious," you know and, so yeah. But it can be done. And there are these ways of relearning in stages and steps and you're building a whole new set of memories and a whole new, like you close one file and you open up another file and here's the memory, you know, that you can put in of," oh, you know, we, we laid on the bed together and held each other and just gently stroked each other." 

Or there was one, couple, a lesbian couple I worked with. They said that, the woman had, had ended up reading The Sexual Healing Journey and all about the relearning touch exercises. And she said, "well, you know, me and my, my partner, we've kind of figured that out on our own." She said, "we, we, we would lay on the bed and just with their clothes on and, and then, and over time, we'd just remove one piece of clothing," you know, per session they had with each other until they were comfortable being without their clothes on.

And you know, and I am nodding. Yeah. That's, that's the, that's the idea behind these and, and, and I always went bravo, you know, I can lay out these exercises, but it's the principles behind them when you take them and you create them to be how you want to be, or you invent your own based on them. That's like even better.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:45:36] Would you say that there's ever a time that you should just power through?

Wendy Maltz: [00:45:43] No.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:45:43] Power through sex?

Wendy Maltz: [00:45:47] I've not seen that work. How can I say, if the, you know, more flashbacks seem to come up when the stress increases and anxiety increases. And so when you're powering through, you're inviting more associations to the the early trauma you and your partner, you've gotta be able to, you know, tap your finger on your partner's shoulder and say, "I'm having a reaction. This isn't working for me now. I need to take a break" and that it might be a break that's a break, you know, that, where you don't really reconnect, or you reconnect ideally in a way where you just do some other type of loving contact and soothing contact.

But I think you have to, I think when those reactions, when a negative reaction comes up, it's important to honor it. And I'm not saying, you know, that's not like hate yourself if you powered through, you know, it's like, eh, if you power through, you power through, you know what I mean? It's like in general, you want to be honoring those, honoring your own reaction and over time, you know, looking at that kind of reaction, if you're upstairs going, what do I need now to feel safer?

Or maybe, maybe there's, it's just not the right time. Like if you had an interaction with the perpetrator on the phone the other night, you know, and then you've, and then it's a morning, your, your partner wants to have sex. It's like, you know what a hard thing to, to expect of yourself and, or you watched a movie and you were triggered by that, or you're going through a stressful time at work and you're not getting good sleep and your body's exhausted. And, and, or you're in pain in some way already, or you had a, you're just feeling pissy towards your partner because your partner was pissy towards you or something, you don't really feel like having sex.

You know, it's like, it's important to kind of take a look and go "what's going on here, but I have every right to not feel comfortable having sex right now, or to stop in the middle." And the partners need to have a heads up that that can happen, and their best option at that point is to be very understanding and comforting, and that's cool.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:48:22] And would you say that it's common for, for survivors survivor relationships to I, I'm trying to think of the right way to say this. I can think it in my brain, getting the words to come out is different, but you know, to go through it, be in a good place and then maybe years go by and they've been great, and then all of a sudden, almost to go back to go backwards and then be, you know, feel like, "ah, I just don't want to do this. This is too hard for me." Is it common for relationships, I will now sound stupid coming out of my mouth, but is it common for sexual relationships to ebb and flow? 

Wendy Maltz: [00:49:03] Oh, yes. Yes. And that's with, and without abuse in the history. It's just very, it's common for people to go through periods of time where they don't feel that much attraction to a partner. And, or that they, you know, and this is common in any relationship, even friendships, you know, go through ebbs and flows, where if you just think of a girlfriend or, you know, or if you're a guy, think of a guy friend, you know, there are times when you feel closer and times when you kind of like didn't with, with the other person, but relationships ebb and flow, attraction ebbs and flows.

There's hormonal changes that go on and, there's sexual, there's, there's problems that can go on like a undiagnosed urinary tract infection can cause sexual functioning problems and there's, you know, there's, there's just lots of different things. So, I've, when those times come up, I just kind of, I think it's good to step back and go, you know, "what's going on here," you know?

And, and do we need some new growth or change or focus with each other or, you know, talk out, talk out our feelings, and is there something happening? There can also be strange, or things people don't understand, like who you were at the time of the abuse, the age you were, or something about the perpetrator.

There can be something that re, that cycles back around and, and re-triggers a reaction. Like if you have a child who is there, who is suddenly the age you were at the time of the abuse, without realizing it, just seeing the kid being that age can re-stimulate, can re-stimulate feelings about the early abuse.

And then once you kind of intellectually get that, "oh, that's going on? And okay, well what, what can I say to myself? How can I remind myself that that was the then, this is the now," or, or "look at my child, my child's going to be fine." And, you know, the partner might be triggering by demanding certain things or the partner might be going through, through changes where they're, they're not dealing with their issues very well.

And so being able to say, you know, we've got to start dealing with our issues so we can feel close again and, and rebuild our trust and, and connection to each other. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:51:41] I think that's good to hear. I think that's important to hear. Well, I want to wrap up this episode, but I definitely want to have you back, cause I have more questions I want to ask you. So everyone, thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you have walked away feeling a little bit more educated and honestly want to be, become even more educated because just in my conversation with Wendy here, I just want to keep on asking, because I think it is a topic that is misunderstood and it's a part of life that everyone should be able to enjoy.

And if you're not enjoying it, then maybe you should take a step back and ask yourself, you know, "why, why am I not enjoying this?" And know, maybe you do need to go talk to someone because I think it is fair to say it's something that we wouldn't have if it wasn't part of the human experience. So thank you everyone for tuning in today and make sure you catch us next week on Smart Talks again. Thank you so much.