SHOW NOTES

Follow Tanya on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Elizabeth: You are listening to Smart Talks with the Elizabeth Smart Foundation.

I'm your host, Elizabeth Smart. Smart Talks provides survivors and supporters with tools for healing, a sense of community and empowerment so we can all heal and move forward together.

Hello and welcome everyone to another episode of Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am Elizabeth and today I have Tanya Gould with me. She is incredible. And this brief little bio that I'm gonna read to you does not do her justice, not even a sliver of justice, because she is just incredible.

Tanya Gould is an activist fighting against human trafficking and striving to impact legislative policy and raise public awareness. She currently holds her second term and is co-chair on the US Advisory Council on Human Trafficking. Like I said, this is super brief and it does not even scratch the surface of just how articulate, incredible, experienced, knowledgeable, compassionate, wonderful human being that she is. So it is a true pleasure to have you on today, Tanya. I'm

[00:01:17] Tanya: I'm equally as honored to be here and share this space with you, Elizabeth.

[00:01:21] Elizabeth: Just to jump right in, I feel like most people have a story as to how they get to where they are today. So I'm going to ask you that question. How did you get into this field? Human trafficking, sexual exploitation. How did you become an advocate? Why do you do what you do?

[00:01:40] Tanya: Just so folks know that I am a survivor of the domestic sex trafficking, and I like to say that I'm a survivor of a lot of things. We know human trafficking or someone who's trafficked, they have like these vulnerabilities, right. And so, when we're speaking in terms of vulnerabilities, we are speaking a trafficker's language, right? That's what they're looking for. Someone with a ton of stuff that they make you feel like they're the ones who can fill this gap for you.

And so for me, I understood early on in my life that I wasn't the only one who was surviving life. I wasn't the only single mom, I wasn't the only, person who was struggling with STD issues, or low economic opportunities, or I wasn't the only one who was suffering from under-resourced communities, right. It wasn't just me. And I felt like a lot of people who were in these situations didn't feel like they had a space or voice or any type of agency, or, just a way to say, hey, the way I'm being treated is not okay. It's just not okay. And so I felt this urge just like deep passion to not only do it for myself, but as I'm doing it, learn what I'm learning and then show others how to do it. I like to call it the "wounded healer" right. Because I appreciate every single thing that I've gone through in life, because it's just shown me how to show the way to others. So that other people can find their way.

 That's the passion. No one should ever have to face life alone. No one should ever be shushed. No one should ever feel like they had a lid closed on them. That's just not okay. It's, it's inhumane. That's what I fight for.

[00:03:35] Elizabeth: Something that you said that stands out to me, that I just feel like speaks so highly to who you innately are, is how you talked about how you knew you weren't the only one struggling with, being a survivor of lots of things. I think to myself and, I really did feel like I was alone. I remember coming back and being like, I don't wanna talk about this because how could anyone possibly understand it?

No one else has ever been through it. But in reality, it is so common. Sexual violence and human trafficking and domestic abuse, they are so common, so much more than any of us realize. I just feel like listening to you speak about that just speaks to just how innately, compassionate and altruistic you really are, because that definitely was not my first thought.

[00:04:25] Tanya: I remember feeling this. It was shame that wasn't mine, it was all these things that my perpetrators or people that hurt me or made me a victim of, I'm feeling all their stuff. And they're putting this stuff on me and I'm living with it. That's so unfair.

Not only did you victimize me, but you also made me feel shame, guilt, and like all this stuff that it's just not mine to carry. And so it's just so unfair that people who are victims of crime carry this weight. That's, it's just not theirs to carry. And so I felt like I was carrying around what my trafficker or other people in my life who victimized me, I was carrying around their stuff. And that just began to feel disgusting to me. Like I don't, this is theirs. They put this on me and expect me to carry it. I'm not gonna do that. And neither is it okay for others to do this either, because before this happened to me, I was this person right here. I was strong. I was sassy. I was, exactly outspoken.

I was in, they tried to shut me down. They tried to control me, in which they did, and use me because they saw something in me that they could use for their own benefit. So that showed me how priceless I am, how worthy I am, because they saw they could make money off of me. So how awesome is it for me to say, no, you're not gonna do that to me because now I realize that I am worthy, but you want me to feel the opposite.

So that will keep me vulnerable and keep me in a place of feeling lesser than. And that's what happens in a lot of communities that are under resourced or, overlooked. You have this feeling of I'm not worthy, because I don't have a platform to speak or to be creative or to grow.

And that's not true. Sometimes it's just what society makes you think that you are or where you are. But the truth is I get to decide that for myself, I get to decide where I wanna be and who I am. That's not a decision someone else, and I remember thinking, so my trafficker, I remember when we were recruiting, there was this person we were looking at sitting in the car and we were looking out the window and he was teaching us, the type of women to approach.

And so there was this girl walking and I said, oh my goodness, look at her. She's cute. I was just being very honest and he was like, oh no, no, she would not give you the time of day. Look at her. She's walking straight with her head up. That's not somebody we want. She's too confident.

[00:07:09] Elizabeth: wow.

[00:07:09] Tanya: I would never forget that. Like I remember like, it really struck me. And as I began to grow and heal, I'm like, if you don't know who you are, someone else will control you. If you're not confident, like someone will see that you're not in control of yourself. You don't even know who you are to control that or manage that or do anything about that.

And they will take control of that.

[00:07:32] Elizabeth: That's such a powerful perspective. it Is so powerful to be like, I am worthy and they're trying to exploit that. Just everything you've said just now is I wish every survivor, every victim could feel that way, could understand that.

Was there something for you that helped you come to that understanding or was there like a switch that flicked or was there a moment in time or was it a slow learning process? How did you get to that point of understanding and knowledge? And honestly, self-awareness?

[00:08:05] Tanya: I was very suicidal, my whole life.

As a teenager, pre-teen teenager. And then, I was trafficked. After I was trafficked, I had two kids. During my trafficking experience, I had two kids, but after I had got out of it, my youngest were, two and my baby was just a couple months.

I, didn't understand postpartum. But with my second one, I felt just extremely overwhelmed with being a single mom and so young, and having gone through the experience that I went through and felt alone. And I literally was thinking every day, how I could creatively commit suicide without it looking like suicide, because I didn't want that to be my kid's story.

Like that was, how am I gonna do this? And so one day the kids were taking a nap. And I lived in this, apartment, house that was an apartment, I was on the third floor, and then there was steps to go up to the roof. So I'm angry because I can't think of a way to like creatively kill myself. And so I get a chair I pull it up on the rooftop and I literally am like, okay, I'm gonna have a talk with God, cause I'm gonna need this to change. I definitely had a sailor mouth I was just cussing up a storm. How's that? And um, so I chair up to the roof. And I'm sitting there and I'm like contemplating, like, you know what, the easiest thing to get this over with successfully would just be to jump off the freaking roof.

Right? Cause I'm three stories up. I would surely die. But no one knows the kids are in there and they're sleeping, they're taking a nap and I would have to call someone, just took a lot of energy and I'm just having all the stuff. Meanwhile, I'm going through all this. I hear them, start to awaken.

So I go downstairs and I'm like, I'm just gonna go to the library. So I put them in the stroller. I walk to the library. It's a place where I could always like come together. So I'm, I'm go, I'm pushing the stroller and I'm walking down this aisle and it's almost as if, I hear like something grabs my attention and I turn to my left and I see this really thin on, on the side of the binder, it says "The Prophet" right by, I forget his name it's like a hundred year old book, but it's super thin and it's "The Prophet." I go, huh? The Prophet? And I remember thinking, what do you have to tell me? You know, I'm like real, you know, upset. I pulled out this book and when I open it, I open it to the page that says, "tell me about sadness."

And I'm like, "oh, I can tell you everything about sadness." I'm thinking I was just sitting on my room, trying to kill myself, and said, t he cup that holds the sadness is the same cup, how deep it is that sadness dug this deep hole, like this deep, that's what it feels like, that same cup can be filled with joy. That was my sliver of hope. That's where, when we're talking about hope, a abounds, hope is there somewhere, that was my first glimpse of, oh, I can have as much joy as I have of sadness, like for real.

So it was like a challenge. Let's see, let's see this play out, and ever since then, it just changed everything about how I see life. Everything wasn't sad. That's where I was. That was my perspective. And I could only think about sadness. I could never think about joy. And so things really began to turn for me.

 I became more open to healing and what that could look like for me really to attain this joy in my life. Even now, I'm like, hmm, can I have more joy? I'm like, yeah, I think so. I think this can be filled with some more joy we're not done yet.

[00:12:07] Elizabeth: That's so incredible. So what brings you joy?

[00:12:09] Tanya: Oh my God. Everything, anything. Anything. I have grand babies. They are amazing, watching my kids who are adults now watching them just like, I know what we went through at me being a single mom and then marrying twice, with my kids, like we went through a lot and to see them in their life, like owning their lives and not letting my story, tell them how their story should be.

Like they're so independent. Watching, things change, like being able to just watch people grow just because I see something sad. To me, I know there's another side to this. Like I know this, isn't the end of the story. To me, that's joy. Everything, leaves, the shade, the sun, the rain.

It all has its place and purpose. And I just appreciate everything in life. I don't regret anything. Nothing. Because everything means something and is intentional and it's on purpose. Nothing's coincidental.

[00:13:17] Elizabeth: You're just amazing. Like, I, I admire you so much. Even if I didn't admire you before this podcast, which I did, I would admire you for simply what you've said today and the perspectives that you've shared in sharing your story as much as you have.

Does it ever get tiring staying actively involved in this field in advocacy? Having lived it you know, the emotion that you felt, that you have felt in your lifetime and when you hear other survivors stories sometimes it's hard. I guess I'm speaking for myself. Sometimes it is hard to separate my personal emotion from the emotion that they are displaying or sharing and to not feel for their stories. So do you ever find yourself drained?

[00:14:08] Tanya: I will tell you what drains me. What drains me is the frustration I feel when it comes to states and local government is doing in being proactive when it comes to human trafficking, when it comes to preventing human trafficking, when survivors are constantly telling their stories and, and you believe us, but you're only using us for your purposes. And it still feels like we're negotiating, like we're with our buyers. Like some of those things that I know it's affecting our growth, when you say you're gonna do this, but this is how you're showing it, feels manipulative, like our trafficking experience, those types of things, because, trafficking happens because we allow it period.

[00:14:57] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm

[00:14:58] Tanya: And that's the reality, our response to children who are being exploited, that happens because we let it. Period. And so the fact that that's true, frustrates me. The fact that no matter how loud I am in saying this, or how much I wanna talk about how we need to protect our kids, not as a slogan or something fun to say, because people get excited over starting something, things like that is exploited exploitive in itself.

So when organizations say they wanna do things and, I have worked, in the field, not just for myself, but helping other survivors and here I'm making placements, and trusting that the organization I'm calling upon, it's gonna do what they said they were gonna do.

And they didn't, that's disappointing. That's hurtful and, frustrating. And it's frustrating to already not be hurt, right. Or to feel that cuz that's, maybe the right word would be triggering. And I know how a situation like that can be retriggering to survivors as they're walking through their stuff. And you said you had a place for them to heal, but you don't have the right staff in place, or you're not trauma informed and you're not doing the things that you need to do for this type of trauma, cause you don't understand it, which is OK. Well, if you don't understand it, there is a resolve.

There is an answer. You call on survivor leaders and survivor consultants cause they're everywhere, you know what I'm saying? There's no excuse now. Pay them their work, just like you would do any other consultant to come in and help your organization. Cause for me, it's about if you serve survivors, you serve victims of human trafficking, having victims in your facility helps your facility and helps you keep your jobs. So you need to make sure you're doing your job well, because you're serving this population. So if you're not doing your job well, you keep this population in crisis or in, in a space where they're not healing, that's not OK.

Again, feels like the trafficking experience.

So those are the things that frustrate me, Yes, hearing survivor stories and understanding, because I'm a survivor myself, I get I feel like I, and I love that I'm able to listen and hear and for me, I feel like, for an example, when I'm sitting and talking to federal or state or local, and I'm talking about what survivors need, I'm not talking about my own need. I'm talking about every, I'm talking I'm representing or listening or I'm advocating in a way for every story I've ever heard. For every life I've ever come into contact with.

So I'm getting a perspective, not just for myself, but some of the common things that are among us as survivors and really pushing it. So really it fuels me when I'm working in the trenches, which I love that's the best work ever is to work in the trenches with survivors.

I, that's hands down the best and taking that, to a federal state or local level and advocating for needs and holding people accountable. That fuels me.

[00:18:13] Elizabeth: Do you feel like we've made progress as a nation?

[00:18:16] Tanya: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. We have made progress. Yes. We still have a long ways to go when it comes to being proactive, when it comes to kids online, when it comes to, what we as a nation, like...

So for an example, back in the day, there was a warning, this is rated R and it was rated R for a reason because some topics should be taught at home by your parents, by your caregivers, right? You shouldn't see it first on TV or on the internet. That's a problem. Kids have so much access online to different types of sexual images, or pornography, that's not okay. I don't care what anyone says. That's just not okay. That's not something we should be dancing around, and so back in the day there were, measures taken to make sure that we were keeping kids safe.

Now, not all kids were safe. But now no one's safe. Kids have access because they have friends who have access. So you think you're protecting your kid, but you don't know that their friend has access to things you weren't even ready to talk to your kid about yet. I think that we need to get over this free speech thing on the internet and all that when it comes to pornography and, pornographic images.

We need to make sure that we're safeguarding a lot of this stuff so that kids do not have easy access online to some of these sites. No one should be screaming that. I forget the question you asked me, but I'm sorry. That was what I'm no, I was

[00:19:52] Elizabeth: No, no, I loved it. And I, I agreed with everything you said now I had asked, did you feel like we are making progress as a country?

And so, yeah, no, we,

[00:20:02] Tanya: Yeah, we are making progress. Yeah, we are. We know what human we know, I think most people understand that human trafficking isn't the movie Taken. People are understanding more that human trafficking happens here. And there are more programs to help people who are trafficked here in the United States, however, there's not enough support to support the amount of trafficking that there is there, there isn't enough support.

And so that's where we need, more support with making sure there's like mental health, people who are trained in mental health. And trauma informed ways to help the complexity of a person who had been bought and sold. Period. That's something that we've never dealt with historically.

Anyway, when it we're talking, like in terms of slavery, right? How do you support people who have been bought and sold like a person who have been bought and sold? And so I feel like this issue still lies because we never dealt with the worth of a human.

[00:21:03] Elizabeth: Do you have any suggestions? I mean, for people listening to this, do you have any suggestions on how the individual can be better at supporting and being sensitive to the needs and wellbeing of those victims who have been bought and sold?

[00:21:19] Tanya: Yeah. I think it's understanding that the person who was working right with their body, with their person, that person doesn't necessarily have in place a morality like you do. Or some ethics, like you may have grown up with, right? To just understand some of those basic levels of, what makes you worthy as a human or valuable or just being human is valuable in itself, cuz the things that were done to people who were bought and sold, it's not something you do with a human being.

So it's, to me about supporting the very nature or meaning of what it means to be a human being. And so if you have an organization and you're working with people who've been bought and sold, like that should be a really true foundational priority for your organization that you're thinking about this person is coming into your program, so that you keep your job, but that this person is coming into the program we decided to help these people, these humans, help them have a prosperous outcome in spite of what happened to them. And so how do we support them to do that? That takes a lot of handholding. That takes a lot of you, your own biases, right because you have your own ideas of what you think value and worth is. What it means to be free or to be in control.

Like all of those things where you already have a consistent experience working this out. People who've been bought and sold, they don't have this as a consistent experience to try out. Right. Cause usually you do that as kids growing up. Figure out, this is, oh, this is boundaries.

You know, this is I'm valuable because this is what my parents have shown me. I have some sense of worthiness. Whereas, in situations, people are bought and sold, you don't have this very foundational thing, understanding what it means to just be valued as a human being.

[00:23:22] Elizabeth: I think that is great insight. And some of the things that you've said, I've been in the field basically since I was rescued, which is wow, almost two decades now. I know, right. Isn't it crazy?

[00:23:34] Tanya: I'm so glad you're here with us.

[00:23:36] Elizabeth: Me too, me too. But even some of the things that you've said, whereas I've been in this. They have not crossed my mind. I feel like I'm well informed. I feel like I've heard a lot of stories. I feel like I have a lot of people share their experiences with me, but what you just said about helping these survivors just, I don't even know that I can repeat it accurately, but helping them to just be there and realize that their value resides simply in being human, not based off of perspectives of what's right, what's wrong, what is appropriate, what's inappropriate, is really compelling. It does need to be heard.

What do you see as. Some of the major challenges and hurdles for us as a country moving forward?

[00:24:26] Tanya: Addressing who we have in leadership anywhere. I ran for public office a year ago and lost by 344 votes.

[00:24:36] Elizabeth: Shock. You would've been amazing.

[00:24:39] Tanya: Well, it landed me a job with our Attorney General's office, which I'm very thankful for. A lot of our, not just leadership in our government, like on a federal level. Right. But just everywhere. Who do we have leading? Because back in the day, this is what inspired me. One of the things that inspired me to run was when I was much younger, I knew I always wanted to be involved in civic, like something. Like civic league or city council, because you voted for the person that you saw doing work within the community.

You see them, you know their values, you get to interact with them. Then they run for office cause they want to, have a larger impact, and do more. And you're like, yeah, I know that person, they were in my community. Right. Mm-hmm we don't do that anymore. We will vote for someone because what party they're with, we vote for someone because of the color of their skin or their gender, I can't get over that. That hurts me. Because now we're just not using our minds and thinking critically about what we need, and so to me, it's about, we have to be honest with who we're putting in leadership and holding them accountable, cuz that's our job as a Democratic Republic.

Our job is to hold leaders accountable, whether they're in your church, whether they're your community leader, whether they're your your HOA president, right? You know, if anyone who holds leadership, we just can't let people get, if you are a leader, you are a servant. Period.

That's what a leader is. A leader is a servant, a leader isn't a king. Sorry. Not here. That's not what we're doing here, but we've allowed it. And so that's what I think needs to change, us as normal working citizens, really holding anyone in leadership accountable and responsible to what they said they were gonna do.

And like I said, it's leading a company it's leading anything. We need to be more hold people more to the fire.

[00:26:53] Elizabeth: Well, and that makes you really think twice. I would at least if it was me in office, which I have no desire to be in office, but if it was me, it would really make me think twice. Is this really the job for me? If I'm held accountable to everything that I say I'm gonna do, will I be able to deliver on that?

[00:27:11] Tanya: Yeah. Or don't say it, don't make promises you don't mean. Be real and realistic to people be transparent. Are you willing to be transparent? Like, are you willing to tell the truth?

Are you willing to listen to the people that you serve? And do you see yourself as a servant? You don't see yourself as servant, you shouldn't be running for anything. Maybe in a marathon, you know, or something like that, you know, in a race, but not for office.

I'm running for a public service, opportunity, or job. It's not a get rich job. That's why the pay is low. That's why it's like it is, because that's not what it's for, but people, because even though the pay is low people, see it now because you have to raise all this money to run.

Increases your net worth, that's so silly and it's not who we, I believe who we are supposed to be as a country. That's not the United States of America. That that is definitely not what unites us.

[00:28:10] Elizabeth: That's probably a good message for all leaders, be they in politics, federal, local, or simply at the head of a company. I think that's probably pretty good advice for all of us, cuz I think you absolutely nailed it. You don't get into these positions of power for yourself. You get in to serve others.

If there was one thing that you would want survivors to know what would it be?

[00:28:37] Tanya: I wanna say that I remember what it feels like to be like the most deplorable, to be under the dirt, like to feel like that. To be in a position where people, other humans make you feel like you're the lowest of the low. That is true. That is true. You just don't have to, even though they made you feel this way, it's not the truth.

Like it's not who you are. It's just not. It never was. That's something they put on you. And that, that came from them. That to me, if someone treats you like that, it gives you an idea as to what they feel or how they feel about themselves. I want survivors to get under that, get under that idea that dig yourself, like we know how to dig.

We know how to survive, know how to, so all that energy that we have to survive, take that energy and use it to lift that stuff off of you. Like, don't accept that stuff, because that came from them. That didn't come from you. That's not who you are. It's just not who you are. You are brilliant. You are amazing.

You are, oh my God, everything you were when you came into this planet, right. You're beautiful. And came ready to just be who you are, period. And, so do your best, whether it's like counseling or there's different types of counseling, but you deserve that. You deserve to get that stuff off of you.

You deserve it and you, you should, you sh you just should, because you're amazing. You'll peel that stuff off and you'll see the joy that awaits for you. And you can do anything you wanna do, for every time someone told you, you couldn't do something or couldn't be anything or couldn't dream or whatever, whatever it was, you actually can, that was just their way of keeping you down.

So you feel like them, right? You deserve to do whatever it is you need to do to train and to be everything that you actually think you can be. Like, I dare you to do it. I dare you to try .

[00:30:56] Elizabeth: Well, Tanya, you've been amazing. I feel like I could sit and talk to you all day, but we are about out of time.

So for you listeners, I hope that this has meant something to, cause it certainly has meant a lot to me. Tanya has shared so much and, I mean her talking about when you feel bad and when you feel in like your lowest of lows from, because of abuse you've suffered to remember that's not you. That's what other people have put on you. That in itself is so powerful. And I would echo that to the end of the earth, cuz she's absolutely right.

If you feel like you wanna do something, if you want to help make a difference, if you want to join the cause, pay attention to who we put into power, hold them to what they say they're going to do. Don't just let them say one thing and act a different way. She said it perfectly. Like we do not elect kings. We are electing public servants, they're servants. They should be serving the public.

[00:31:53] Tanya: Yes.

[00:31:53] Elizabeth: And keep that in mind. Let's pay attention to who we put into positions of power and influence in our community and our nation.

 The other point that I just want to reiterate one more time that is still in my mind so strong is that when a survivor goes through something, they have a completely different perspective. Their values are gonna be completely different to our own because of the way that they've been treated and the way that they've been bought and sold.

Keep that in mind, as you build your relationship with them, as you help them, hopefully you're helping them move forward in their life and help them to realize that they were born with greatness within them, and that could never be taken away from them no matter what anyone has done to them, or no matter how many times they've been bought or sold that can't be taken away from them.

And those are just some of the, I feel like the big points that, that I've walked away with besides the fact that I am Tanya's number one fanand completely adore her and think she's amazing and incredible. So thank you so much, Tanya, for making time today to talk to me.

[00:33:01] Tanya: Absolutely. Thank you for having me Elizabeth.

And it's been wonderful and I just thank you for what you're doing and all the people that you're reaching and how you're doing it. And so you are such an inspiration to so many. So, thank you. Thank you for giving back, whatever it is that you wanna call it. And you're doing thank you for doing that.

[00:33:23] Elizabeth: Well, thank you very much and thank you to everyone for listening today. Make sure you catch us next week on our next episode. And please leave a review, please rate us, please subscribe. If there is a topic that you would like to hear more about, please be sure to drop us a comment and until next week, we'll see you then.

Bye bye.