SHOW NOTES

Visit the We Will organization website, wewillorg.com

Read “Do You Want a Cookie” for free, mentioned throughout the interview.

Read We Will Heal, mentioned at 23:17.

Read Brittney’s published research paper, mentioned at 11:38.

Follow Brittney on Instagram.

Follow We Will on Instagram and Facebook.

Follow the Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram and Facebook.

Join the Victory Club, our community of monthly donors who support the work of the foundation.

Chat 24/7 with the National Sexual Assault Hotline.

TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth Smart: Welcome to Smart Talks by the Elizabeth Smart Foundation. I am Elizabeth Smart, and today we have a guest named Brittany Herman. She is an incredible advocate for survivors. She's an incredible advocate for making sure people have a clear understanding of what rape is and how it's not, it doesn't always come in the form that you think of it. It doesn't always happen down dark alleyways at night after getting drunk. So thank you so much, Brittany, for joining me today. It's such a pleasure. 

Brittney Herman: [00:01:21] Yeah, of course. I'm thrilled to be here. So thank you for having me.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:01:24] Just jumping right in, if you could kind of walk me through a little bit of your story, but talk about the kind of girl or the kind of person you were, the world you kind of grew up in. And if you wouldn't mind just kind of walking me through your story, to where you've gotten to where you are today.

Brittney Herman: [00:01:42] Absolutely. So I grew up primarily in the American South, so Texas, Tennessee, Louisiana. That's where I call home. I absolutely love it there. But one drawback to living in the south is that there's very poor sexual education there. And so my sexual education in middle school to high school was them bringing us into a room one time during the year and telling us that if you had sex, you're like chewed gum or that you're disgusting, basically like all of these really horrible things 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:02:13] I know all about that. That sounds so familiar.

Brittney Herman: [00:02:15] Yeah. And just, you know, abstinence forever sort of things. You know, at the time it was, I thought as much sexual education as I needed, I was like, all right, this is sex ed. That's all there is to it. Just no STDs or anything like that. But then I went to, to high school and to college and kind of progressed and all that.

And it was during my senior year of high school that I started dating a young man. And I was really interested in him. I, I was just thrilled about him. And during our relationship, he was like a little bit pushy with sexual things. And I didn't really know how to react to that. I think oftentimes young women feel like, oh, I just really want this boy to like me. And so I'll kind of go along with whatever, but sometimes feeling uncomfortable. 

But there was one day after I graduated high school. I was 17. It was a couple months after he and I had graduated, and I went over to his house and he was very pushy about having sex. And I kept saying, no, I didn't want to, I was not interested in that.

That it wasn't something that I wanted. He began coercing me and pressuring me, making me feel intimidated, making me feel like I couldn't leave if I didn't have sex with him. And so I just, I didn't know what else to do. I was scared. And so I said yes, and just let it happen. And felt horrible afterwards, I went home afterward and my mom asked me, oh, how was hanging out with this boy?

And I said, oh, it was fine wanting so badly to tell her what happened, but feeling so ashamed and so dirty because I thought that I had had sex. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:03:50] Yeah. And if you've been raised in that, in that kind of world where you've been taught you're like a chewed piece of gum if you have sex or, you know, you have one of these analogies and you think, "oh, I can't tell anyone what's happened. I've lost my worth. I've lost my value."

Brittney Herman: [00:04:06] Exactly. Well, and, and growing up in a religious household, I don't think it was like the fault of religion, but it was, oh, like, you know, the Bible says to save yourself until marriage sort of thing. And I thought like, well, I haven't done that. And my parents are going to be so ashamed of me and this is so embarrassing.

And so I just held it in, not wanting to, to express what had happened to me. And so, after that I went off to college. I kept dating that boy for kind of a long time until he started getting a little bit more violent with the, the sexual assaults and the rapes. And so eventually I was able to thankfully get out of that situation, but it was....

Elizabeth Smart: [00:04:40] And do you mind me asking, I mean, what was the turning point for you to get out of that situation? 

Brittney Herman: [00:04:45] Well, I mean, to be a little bit graphic about it and pretty direct, we were in his, in his dorm room, in his apartment and he kind of climbed on top of me and I told him not to, and I screamed no, and was trying with all of my might to push him off of me. And I physically couldn't do it. And I, he just didn't care. He just had zero cares in the world and it was, I'd never felt more dehumanized. I'd never felt more like an object. I'd never felt more worthless than I did in that moment. And I just realized this boy does not care about me the way that I thought he did.

And I'm really sad that it took that long. There was a lot of other things in the relationship, a lot of emotional abuse and things like that that really probably should have tipped me off. But it's one of those things where I can't go back and blame myself for any of that. I can't fault myself for it.

I just have to recognize that that's what happened and, and be thankful that there was a turning point because I don't know how much longer I would have stayed in that relationship. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:05:41] I mean, you're absolutely right. We, you know, in the different times I've come into touch with the different domestic violence organizations. I mean, it takes the average victim of domestic abuse seven times before they successfully leave. So it's, it's not, in my mind it's not a hard stretch to understand, you know, why it would take you longer before leaving him. I mean, you know, you created an emotional attachment and. Like he was your high school love and, you know. 

Brittney Herman: [00:06:13] It was three years of the same person and feeling like, oh, what a beautiful love story this is sort of thing when really it was, it was really dark and, and an ugly story.  I did try to leave him many times, the last time that I finally got away from him, I'd physically ran from his apartment and I had to hide behind an air conditioning unit. So he wouldn't find me on the way to my apartment.

It was just the scariest moment of my life, but I made it through and that's thankfully what matters. I feel really disheartened recognizing the number of women who don't make it through or who have that experience. And it's traumatic enough for them that, that it comes with a lot of heavy things that might lead them not to make it through later in life, but thankfully I've made it through and I've been able to heal from it, but it, it was really scary.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:06:56] Yeah. And I, I just am so, like, you're such a beautiful, lovely person. I mean, of course people are listening to this, they can't see you. So let me tell them, you're this beautiful, lovely person who deserves only good things. And sitting here looking at you and thinking you have you going through that situation is so horrific.

I mean, it, it's, it's terrible. 

And to think that, you know, you're not the only one and that your situation is really, probably pretty similar to many, many other people's experiences in their own life is, is heartbreaking. And so how did you come to realize what was happening to you was, was rape? 

Brittney Herman: [00:07:37] Well, so that last time that was really violent. I began to think like this, this not, the way that this is that beautiful, wonderful thing that people talk about sort of thing. And so I kind of had been tipped off by that, but during my senior year of college, I became a student orientation advisor. So I was in charge of leading the students there on campus and taking them to various presentations during orientation, and one of them that they had added since my first year in college, since my orientation was a title nine presenter.

And during her presentation she discussed how one in five college women, in Tennessee at least, would be sexually assaulted while they were in college. And then I was like, "oh, that's horrible. It would suck to be one of those people" sort of thing. And then she started talking about what consent was and what coercion was.

And I was like, wait a second. I don't think that that was consent. I don't think that any thing had happened without coercion. And so realizing that first time after high school, that moment, that really changed my life. I feel like I realized kind of all at once during that presentation. Oh, that was rape. I was raped. And kind of having to, I think come to terms with that first myself was probably one of the most difficult moments is realizing like, oh, I am, I am one of those one in five and that's horrible. And so initially it was just kind of those emotions and the triggers and all of that. 

But then I started getting really mad and really angry about that sexual education I'd had during my time in Texas. Where it's just, oh, you know, if you have sex, you die. Why did no one tell me about consent? Why didn't anyone tell me about coercion? Recognizing that he had had the same sexual education as I did, and recognizing if someone had told him what consent was, would he have asked for it? Like, I, it's really, it's angering to think that people don't get this education and that I had to live with this. And I had to live with the shame and my unwillingness to tell people about what had happened to me, because I simply didn't understand what sexual assault was. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:09:36] And I think that is probably one of the biggest disservices that we do in all of the safety education that we are taught as children. You know, if, if you catch on fire, everyone knows, oh, stop, drop, and roll. If there's an earthquake, everyone knows go stand in the doorway or get under your desk or get under your table. I mean, there's basic safety that we all know. That we're taught it at home. We're taught at, at school. And yet one of the most, probably most prevalent dangers in society, you know, sexual abuse and violence and rape. We are taught so little about. 

I mean, it's basically, you know, don't get drunk at a bar by yourself. Don't walk out by yourself. Don't go on dates with strangers. Try double dating or go out in a group. 

Brittney Herman: [00:10:25] Don't go to the gas station at night, make sure you check under the car before you walk up to your own car.

Like things like that, thinking that it's going to happen on the street when eight in 10 sexual assaults are by acquaintances. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:10:36] Exactly. And then realizing that there is not teaching the difference between enthusiastic consensual sex versus what sexual violence is, I mean, I wish I could say yours was the first story that I ever heard of a victim being raped by their boyfriend or husband or spouse. I wish that I could say yours is the first, but it's not. And that's what's scary because so many individuals don't realize what's happened to them is actually rape, is actually sexual violence, because they know the person that did it to them and they think, well, this person loves me. This person would never hurt me. You know, this is part of being in a relationship when it's, it's not. 

Brittney Herman: [00:11:18] No, not at all. And that's, that's where my anger kind of took me to this place where it's like, yeah, I, I cannot possibly be the only woman that this has ever happened to. I can't possibly be the only person.

So I was just really angry and thinking, why did no one in my community, my education, my family, they all failed to tell me about this really important thing of sexual violence. And so that's what led me to do a research study during my time at Brigham Young University law school, seeing whether sexual assault was preventable through sexual education, and I found that it was. And so that's what really has driven my work is realizing when we talk about sexual assault, that's how we can prevent sexual assault.

It seems so intuitive, right? Because you're talking about all these safety things. If we talk about it, people know what to do. If we talk about sexual assault, survivors will know what to do. If we talk about sexual assault, maybe there'll be fewer sexual assaults. In fact, there will be, that's what the studies show, right?

Because I don't think that, you know, boyfriends in happy relationships wake up in the morning and say, "I want to sexually assault my partner today." Right. I think everyone wants to be in a healthy, consensual sexual relationship, 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:12:19] Or at least we hope they do. 

Brittney Herman: [00:12:21] Yes. We hope. I do think that there is that small percentage of people that, that are that way. But with the rate of sexual assault that we see across the United States, I think that disproportionately many sexual assaults are taking place by partners who don't want to sexually assault, their partner, and that doesn't negate any of the survivors feelings. It doesn't remove any culpability from that person, but the, the studies show that we can prevent it through talking about and through teaching what sexual assault is. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:12:51] And I also just think from from the victim's standpoint talking about it is, is so important because I think the act of sexual violence or rape is so damaging and isolating in and of itself that it does make you feel like you are alone. It does make you feel like nobody else understands what you've been through and it does make you feel damaged. And so why do you want to share that damage with the world? 

But by talking about it, by helping others to realize. This does happen and it's not fair and it's not right, but you're not alone, and we are here for you and we believe you. And we support you. I feel like that also is so key in trying to change how we view it as a society, how we respond as a society, how we help our victims to heal and move forward. 

Brittney Herman: [00:13:41] Absolutely. That's something that my organization works a lot on is helping survivors as well, because for me the most, and 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:13:48] sorry, just to cut in what is the name of your organization?

Brittney Herman: [00:13:52] It is called We Will, and it's a national nonprofit organization dedicated to the sexual assault prevention and survivor empowerment. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:14:00] I love it. So tell me about, more about We Will now. 

Brittney Herman: [00:14:04] Yes, absolutely. So my organization works in a few key areas. We have formal and informal education, community growth and survivor support.

And so the survivor support aspect does look a lot like telling survivors about sexual assault and what that looks like and helping them know that they're not alone because for me in my healing journey, that was one of the most important things is recognizing that I do not need to be ashamed of this, that it's, I like to equate it to, if you were robbed on the street, you would immediately go and tell the police there's no shame in being robbed or mugged or anything like that.

So why is it that when I'm robbed of this, sort of these feelings, you know, like of being myself in a being without a sexual assault. Why is it that when I'm robbed of that, I'm ashamed to tell people? And so that's why educating these survivors has become so important to me in helping them understand that they are not alone because I carried that burden alone for three years.

And it really, really damaged me. I wish that I had come home that day and told my mom immediately what had happened to me. Right? But it took three years for me to even tell a human soul. And then four years before I told my parents about it, it was just so isolating and so damaging to feel that guilt and that shame that no survivors should have to feel, but that I think most survivors do feel.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:15:19] I think you're absolutely right. It is so hard to come forward to share yourself, to open yourself up again to that level of vulnerability where you feel like you may be judged for something that wasn't your fault. I think you are, you're absolutely right. And it's completely understandable why victims don't come forward more often.

Why they don't speak up more often, which I think just makes you all the more commendable for everything that you're doing. Now, you've also written a children's book. Called "Do You Want a Cookie," right?

Brittney Herman: [00:15:50] Yes. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:15:51] Okay. Tell me about this children's book. I've got three kids, I need to get my hands on this book.

Brittney Herman: [00:15:57] Well, so it's, it goes to the first prong of what We Will does, and that's the informal and formal education aspect. So it is a more informal mode of education. What it is is it's basically teaching children about consent and coercion in innocuous situations. So asking your friend, "do you want a cookie?" It's the idea that you wouldn't force your friend to eat a cookie if they didn't want to, you wouldn't continue asking your friend if they want the cookie if they say that they don't want it. And of course the parallel there is with sexual assault. Like you wouldn't ask your partner if they wanted to have sex multiple times. If they say that they don't want to, or at least you should not.

Right? And so it's about teaching children about consent and the fact that they have power to give consent and power to, to tell people about things that happen to them and talking about it in such a way that it is really innocuous, and leaves it open to the parent to bring in the sexual aspect when the child is mature enough to handle that, when the parent thinks that it's appropriate.

I don't think there's such a thing as telling children too young about these concepts and helping to protect them from sexual assault. And helping prevent them from becoming a sexual assault perpetrator. That's how we'll solve sexual assault is preventing individuals from becoming perpetrators. Just as much as we change our society to say that we won't accept sexual assault.

Elizabeth Smart: [00:17:17] And I mean, I th I think this is going to be, I mean, I haven't read it yet, but I want to, I'm going to. 

Brittney Herman: [00:17:23] I will send it to you. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:17:24] Oh good, good. Cause I want it. Because I get asked all the time, are you going to tell your kids? Are you going to tell your kids what happened to you? Have you already, how are you going to, how are you going to teach your kids?

I mean, I have a lot of people, a lot of questions all the time about, you know, when you start speaking to your kids about it. And you know, some of the pieces that I've picked up along my own journey is, you know, when they start asking questions, start giving them answers. And it's never too soon to start having those conversations with them.

So in complete agreeance with what you said now, my kids are six, four, and two. My oldest is going into first grade here and she's just a few weeks coming up. I can't believe it's that time already, but I mean, even with my daughter, you know, she, it has come up because a lot of times I travel for work, whether I'm giving a presentation somewhere or I'm going to attend a meeting or a conference or something I do travel and she'll be like, "no, I don't want you to go. Where are you going? Why are you going? Why can't you stay? Can I come with you?" And I mean, there's a whole load of mom guilt there on the side. But I try to take these opportunities to talk to her about why I'm going, what I'm going for. And it's not necessarily going to say, "well, I'm trying to, you know stop rape from happening."

I mean, she's six, she's not quite ready for that, but I can talk about, "well, you know, not everyone in this world is a good person" and she, I look at her and she's so sweet and she's so innocent. And she wants to believe that everyone is a good person and that every, that no one would ever hurt her. And I want to believe that, but I mean, I was hurt. You were hurt.

We both know that there are people out there who are willing to hurt and take advantage. And I never, I never want that to happen to any of my children. And so then I try to break it down for and explain to her how there are sometimes people out there who are, who are not, not so good people who are a little bit, they don't understand maybe the difference between right or wrong, or they're, they're just flat out bad people. And sometimes they hurt others. And you know, what do you do when someone's trying to hurt you? So right now it's talking about protecting yourself from other people who had hurt you. I imagine probably sooner than later, it is going to progress rather quickly, which quite frankly I'm terrified about.

But at the same time, no matter my level of terror to have this conversation with her, my terror of something else happening to her because I didn't have this conversation or I didn't educate her is even greater. I guess what I'm saying is I'm more willing to have the awkward, hard conversations with her, then risk her being hurt.

Brittney Herman: [00:20:12] Absolutely. And that's part of what inspired me to make the children's book. It's actually, I have a niece who's six and she's my first niece. And so of course, you know, first grandchild, we all just love her. And I live in Utah and she lives in Utah. And the current statistics for Utah's at one in three Utah women will be sexually assaulted.

And I looked at my poor, sweet, six-year-old niece and thought, what can I do about this? Right? Like I can't save 17 year old Brittney, 17 year old Brittney has gone through what she was going to go through, but hopefully I can save my niece. And so that, for me, was everything is helping to, to yeah, how do I help children?

And that was part of making the children's book is just because, unfortunately, we may think that children are too young to learn about some of these concepts, but they're not too young to become victims. They're not too young to learn how to protect themselves or how to know what to do if something happens to them.

And that's, that's why it's so important. I mean, the studies that I do, they've shown that sexual education is most effective when it is consistent, when it does start at a young age. And so I just think, yeah, we need to have these conversations. They may be a little bit awkward, but that's okay. I mean, even being around my nieces and nephews now, it's very much like, oh, like, "Hey, she didn't give you consent to like pull her up onto the couch."

When you know, she's pulling her little baby sister and just having her recognize those words and be accustomed to them. I think it will be less shocking later on when we bring in the sexual aspect of these concepts. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:21:44] I agree completely. And the more that we practice these conversations, the more that we have these conversations, it's not just one and done. It's something that needs to be ongoing. I mean, once again, to use my daughter as an example, at the beginning of her kindergarten year, I started talking to her about, you know, what's acceptable, what's not, when she has the right to defend herself, when she needs to listen to her teacher versus when she needs to stand up for herself.

And then, you know, we didn't talk about it again for a while. And then the next time I asked her, "oh, do you ever think it's okay to fight back or to scream or to bite or to kick or yell" or whatever? And she's like, "no, no." And I was like, "well, why do you think that" she's like, "cause a star will be taken off next to my name." And so then I was like, "okay, gotta have this conversation again." 

Brittney Herman: [00:22:30] No, I think that's done totally. Right. And that's something that I do get questions from parents really frequently is okay. Like, "how do I talk about this?" And yeah, it's answering those questions and it's being consistent and it's checking in with your kid about their understanding and continuing to do that. So I think that that's great that you're continuing to have those conversations. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:22:47] And of course I want my kids to respect their teachers. Of course I want them to be kind. I mean, of course I want them to be, you know, good, caring people. Of course I want that. But I also want them to understand when someone is crossing the line, when someone is taking advantage of them. And so I think it's just so powerful that you have written this book and that is, that you are approaching, you are tackling this issue, you know, right from the very beginning, because that is how we're going to create change. 

Brittney Herman: [00:23:17] Absolutely. That's, I really want everyone to have their hand on this book. I've made it free as a PDF on the We Will website and then also people can order copies of it. And then in addition to that, because of the children's book and kind of recognizing how important it is to teach it at a young age, the nonprofit has also produced a book of survivors stories that's appropriate for individuals learning about sexual assault kind of starting in middle school, and it's just a compilation of survivor stories and what they went through, ranging anything from something horrible happening on the street, you know, those random, dark alley ones that we hear of, to rape by a significant other. 

And so really what We Will and what my organization is trying to accomplish is getting that range of starting young and then going until, you know, the student, the child or the student is out of the home or out of school. So that way we are always talking to our kids about this, and I think there's never a time to stop talking about it. Now that I'm a little bit older and my little brother is like, kind of starting to get to the age where he dates. I, even though he's, you know, he's graduated and stuff, I talk to him about  consent. I talk to him about the way that it's appropriate to treat someone else, because I think that these conversations just they're something that our society needs to have more frequently. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:24:30] Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more.

And I love that you have, you know, another tool for parents to give to their middle schoolers, high schoolers as they start to get a little bit older. And not just because it's, it's a tool, but just from what you've said, you know, it's, it's a range of stories. It's an array of stories from darkest night to well, darkest night. I mean, I don't really think there's any daylight in these stories. Other than that they're all survivors. And then it takes incredibly strong people, and that to be raped, to be sexually abused, you're not a weak person. You're not a weak person.

Brittney Herman: [00:25:04] I think that's the most important thing that I've learned about myself. I used to think that my sexual assault would always define me as someone who was broken and someone who was "chewed gum" in some ways, that I was damaged and that I would never be okay. But recognizing now, like my sexual assault has defined me as an advocate. It's defined me as a resilient person who can get through anything.

I never wish this experience on anyone and that's why I'm working so hard against it. But recognizing how strong I am. Like I want all survivors to feel the way that I feel about that experience. Like, yes, I'm angry. Yes, I wish that it never would have happened. But I know that I'm resilient. I know that survivors are resilient. And so I hope that these resources can help them recognize that. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:25:49] Well, I love that. Brittany, thank you so much for your time today. I so admire and applaud and support all the work that you're doing. I can't wait to go read your book. And actually, what was the name of this other, this compilation of survivors stories that you've put together? 

It's called 

Brittney Herman: [00:26:05] We Will Heal. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:26:07] We Will Heal. And it's, and so the, Do You Want a Cookie, the children's book, is at WeWill.org? You can get it as a PDF on there?

Brittney Herman: [00:26:16] WeWillOrg.com. Yes, it's available on there. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:26:19] WeWillOrg.com. 

Brittney Herman: [00:26:21] Yes. And it's just free for download, or you can order a copy. We also have an initiative where people can order a book and then send a book to a family in need who's expressed a desire to have a free physical copy. So it's, it's really great. The amount of support that we've had for it. 

Elizabeth Smart: [00:26:37] Oh, that's amazing. And that's incredible. And I can't wait to get my hands on it and read it, for myself and to my kids. And I hope, I hope everyone who's listened today, walks away feeling a little bit more empowered, feeling like, you know, if you are a victim, if you are a survivor that it doesn't define you and that there are so many incredible, strong people out there who are working to make a change. You're not in this alone, that there are people out there working to make a change. So, Brittany, thank you again so much for joining me today.

You've just been incredible to speak with. Thank you. And everyone listening, make sure you go check out wewillorg.com and support them. And please leave us a review. Please give us a rating and we look forward to catching you next time on Smart Talks. Thank you again.